Retirement

Originally Posted by Haasome

In the U.S. (At least) I believe a big motivator was the incredibly high unemployment rate that accompanied the Great Depression. Older folk were thought to be less efficient and they held onto highly prized jobs that younger workers might occupy. Social Security insurance was created by Roosevelt and used as an incentive to move the elders out of these positions to reduce unemployment. However, retirement has evolved into a perceived entitlement (for many) and as we've grown more affluent and long-lived, retirement has morphed into an end-of-life vacation to some, new careers or volunteerism to for others, and simply an opportunity to turn the page for others. As I prepare for my imminent retirement, my wife is quick to remind me: we married for better or worse, but not for lunch! Hmmmmmmmm....

Yes. It took three pages to get there, but Haasome has gotten to the bottom of it. Retirement as an entitled reward for a life of hard work is a relatively recent invention.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Otterhound

Am I the only one that finds a comment/quote like this to have a touch of condescension in it ?
The men and women in construction use both mind and hands on a daily basis . Please remind him of my saying this while he sits in the building that he doubtful could construct simply because he lacks the necessary skills . Those skills don't come from a piece of paper that is framed and hanging on a wall that was built by the construction worker , by the way .
Where's that face palm emoticon again ?

Well I am a retired construction worker and did not find that comment particularly condescending.

Granted it is perhaps worded a bit awkwardly for what I see as it's intended meaning.

Which I took to mean, and perhaps is better stated something like:
"The work that we do unlike construction, does not take such toll on the body that working to 70 and beyond becomes physically problematic".

On the other hand now that you clarified the question I asked earlier. What aspect of the word "retirement" you were referring to, because for example perhaps like Dave's statement it was not totally clear and could be misinterpreted .

Now I see you are referring our retirement SS compensation system. And I agree while there is indeed a vocal fringe in our society that resents the way the money is collected and distributed and might view and try to cast the recipients as obstacles . They represent only a very partisan element with the most extreme self interest at heart, and that discussion is nothing but politics so going there will surly get your own thread closed.

[Humbuster]

Retired last week and it still has not sunk in.

So far, not missing the stress of work at all and cannot wipe the grin off my face.

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by StivMacRae

Yes. It took three pages to get there, but Haasome has gotten to the bottom of it. Retirement as an entitled reward for a life of hard work is a relatively recent invention.

A reward or a recognition that most of us become physically and mentally impaired as we age, and can no longer comfortably withstand the brutal realities of most forms of paid work? I remember when I was little my mother was talking to me about the Victorian age, and she said times were very hard then; there were no state pensions and poor people had to work into old age unless they'd managed to build savings or had a well-wishing relative to take care of them. I remember it all sounded horribly medieval!

As many people's prospects for a comfortable retirement begin to dwindle, are not the ethos and function of retirement being rewritten to account for this (worrying?) economic necessity?

[tbeltrans]

I retired last June, but when my wife was diagnosed with cancer, took contract software engineering work. I was hoping for a short term contract, but it started out as 3 months, then quickly became 6 months, and now it will finally end at 9 months. I have covered our part of her medical bills and she came out of it fine, so it was worth while. Since the contract has lasted so long, I was able to put away a significant amount of cash, buy a used Taylor 912c guitar, a 1925 Martin 2k ukulele, and a couple of other things along the way that I would never have otherwise considered. So it has been a win-win situation.

However, what I am realizing is that my brain has slowed noticeably compared to the much younger crowd. I have the experience and can get the work done, but it sure takes its toll on my energy level by the end of the day. I am debating as to whether to take another contract job for a few months next year if they tend to go on and on like this one.

When I now hear people say they will work until past age 70, I wonder if they realize what approaching that age is really like. We do slow down, each of us maybe at a different rate due to a variety of variables (i.e. how we took care of ourselves over the years, genes, ???), and there is a point at which it really is best to just step aside and let the younger ones have their day. To me, there are some very practical reasons for retirement beyond "we are entitled after working hard all these years", though there is nothing wrong with expressing that either.

I suspect that, if what I read so consistently is true, that too many of us baby boomers will have to continue working because many have not saved enough for retirement, had some bad financial decisions, a divorce late in life, or some calamity that ruined our chances for a good retirement. For me, I did save, and my working contract was to protect that savings against my wife's medical bills while I could still work. If similar issues come up again, I will again go back to contract work. It just seems very strange to me. It really doesn't matter under normal (non medical) circumstances now whether I work or not, but from what I understand, that is not true of a large number of people in my age bracket.

As for respecting various jobs and skills, I think that respecting people who are willing to work an honest job, regardless of what that job is, should be a forgone conclusion. My older brother works as a janitor, and my younger brother is an attorney, and the next younger brother owns a book store after having retired from the Marines. I don't see anything in any of those choices to feel "lesser" about, so I sincerely hope that has not been an issue in this thread.

Tony

[buddyhu]

I hope this thread doesn't bloom into ranting about entitlement, as that is a code word for an ugly attitude ("other people are fundamentally different from me, and are of lesser character, and THEY are the source of society's problems"), and one that often leads to political screeds.

I don't know anyone who feels entitled to retire. Many are coounting upon things happening a certain way...but that is because they have been aware of the relevant programs for their entire working life, and have been contributing money to those programs. The fact that lifespans have increased in a way that makes the economics of these programs difficult is a separate issue from the attitudes of individuals. If there is to be talk of entitlement, I sincerely hope that people only talk about the only sense of entitlement they can really know: their own.

[Captain Jim]

Retirement, for my wife and I, meant that we were no longer tied to an appointment book. An earlier post referred to "an end-of-life vacation"... I kinda like that premise, but it is life not a vacation.

We retired 9 years ago, but three years into that discovered what my wife calls "fun summer jobs." Like college kids. Well, without the drunken nights and morning stumbling in.

I never anticipated any kind of work being something I wanted to do in retirement. My lovely wife likes being productive, I am completely OK with travel and play-time. So, we "take turns." By the end of a 3 or 4 month gig, we are both ready to go play again. OK, truth be told, I get itchy feet after a couple months in any one place.

If one has worked out the financial part (and I am amazed at people who find themselves retired [by choice or forced] without a plan), retirement gives you the freedom from a work schedule. It doesn't mean everyday is a vacation, it just means that you get to decide how to spend those hours in each day.

You can make more money, you can't make more time.

[sweiss]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

.....As for respecting various jobs and skills, I think that respecting people who are willing to work an honest job, regardless of what that job is, should be a forgone conclusion..... Tony

Well put.

The thing that makes this country work are the millions who get up every morning and go to work.....whether they feel like it or not.....whatever their job might be.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

I hope this thread doesn't bloom into ranting about entitlement, as that is a code word for an ugly attitude ("other people are fundamentally different from me, and are of lesser character, and THEY are the source of society's problems"), and one that often leads to political screeds.

I don't know anyone who feels entitled to retire. Many are coounting upon things happening a certain way...but that is because they have been aware of the relevant programs for their entire working life, and have been contributing money to those programs. The fact that lifespans have increased in a way that makes the economics of these programs difficult is a separate issue from the attitudes of individuals. If there is to be talk of entitlement, I sincerely hope that people only talk about the only sense of entitlement they can really know: their own.

I took any reference to "entitlement" out of my post since I said much more about other things, and that point was not important to the post. I don't know if that is what you were responding to, but just in case, that text is gone. Hopefully the majority of my post makes some sense.

Tony

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

I took any reference to "entitlement" out of my post since I said much more about other things, and that point was not important to the post. I don't know if that is what you were responding to, but just in case, that text is gone. Hopefully the majority of my post makes some sense.

Tony

Hi Tony -

I actually liked your post quite a bit. Found it thoughtful and valuable. Thanks for your response, nonetheless.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

Retirement, for my wife and I, meant that we were no longer tied to an appointment book. An earlier post referred to "an end-of-life vacation"... I kinda like that premise, but it is life not a vacation.

We retired 9 years ago, but three years into that discovered what my wife calls "fun summer jobs." Like college kids. Well, without the drunken nights and morning stumbling in.

I never anticipated any kind of work being something I wanted to do in retirement. My lovely wife likes being productive, I am completely OK with travel and play-time. So, we "take turns." By the end of a 3 or 4 month gig, we are both ready to go play again. OK, truth be told, I get itchy feet after a couple months in any one place.

If one has worked out the financial part (and I am amazed at people who find themselves retired [by choice or forced] without a plan), retirement gives you the freedom from a work schedule. It doesn't mean everyday is a vacation, it just means that you get to decide how to spend those hours in each day.

You can make more money, you can't make more time.

I think that the part in bold is something I need to take to heart.

As for people who are forced into retirement, it is amazing how well that can work out. There is a woman in our condo association who worked for the phone company up until it was broken up. In that situation, she was one of those forced to retire. She said it was pretty thin living for many years, but she made it and is doing OK now. I am really fortunate to live among such people, the last of the "Depression babies", so I could learn their views on managing money.

The other thing I have learned through observation in our association is that, unless you have some real, active interest to sustain you in retirement, you will die fairly quickly. We hear that as a sort of "urban legend", but there really is truth to that. In our association, it seems to be the people who develop social connections and have active interests that fare rather well in retirement. Many do volunteer work, as my wife is now doing several hours a week. Some pick up part time work. Others join various clubs.

Tony

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

Hi Tony -

I actually liked your post quite a bit. Found it thoughtful and valuable. Thanks for your response, nonetheless.

Thanks buddyhu. I reread that part of my post after reading yours and felt it could be a bit more judgmental than I intended my post's tone to be. I am glad I could edit it. I likewise enjoy reading your posts.

Tony

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

Retirement, for my wife and I, meant that we were no longer tied to an appointment book. An earlier post referred to "an end-of-life vacation"... I kinda like that premise, but it is life not a vacation.

We retired 9 years ago, but three years into that discovered what my wife calls "fun summer jobs." Like college kids. Well, without the drunken nights and morning stumbling in.

I never anticipated any kind of work being something I wanted to do in retirement. My lovely wife likes being productive, I am completely OK with travel and play-time. So, we "take turns." By the end of a 3 or 4 month gig, we are both ready to go play again. OK, truth be told, I get itchy feet after a couple months in any one place.

If one has worked out the financial part (and I am amazed at people who find themselves retired [by choice or forced] without a plan), retirement gives you the freedom from a work schedule. It doesn't mean everyday is a vacation, it just means that you get to decide how to spend those hours in each day.

You can make more money, you can't make more time.

This is what I encounter most often with my retired friends and neighbors: they have a pleasurable recognition that retirement offers some freedom that is not usually available to folks who are providing for a young family and/or building a career. It is a respite from some of the drivenness of modern life. And while that freedom is wonderful, it doesn't really look like or feel like a constant vacation. It is another form of living life. Nothing more or less.

[BrunoBlack]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

I hope this thread doesn't bloom into ranting about entitlement, as that is a code word for an ugly attitude ("other people are fundamentally different from me, and are of lesser character, and THEY are the source of society's problems"), and one that often leads to political screeds.

You bring up a good point. To maintain civility in the thread. I replaced the word "entitlement" with "expectation" in my original thread.

Paul

[kydave]

Originally Posted by Otterhound

Am I the only one that finds a comment/quote like this to have a touch of condescension in it ?
The men and women in construction use both mind and hands on a daily basis . Please remind him of my saying this while he sits in the building that he doubtful could construct simply because he lacks the necessary skills . Those skills don't come from a piece of paper that is framed and hanging on a wall that was built by the construction worker , by the way .
Where's that face palm emoticon again ?

I am sorry you took this as a slap to construction workers. There was no condescension intended whatsoever. Neither my boss (whose father is a contractor) nor I (whose father is an engineer) have anything other than respect for construction workers.

I used an example of someone who works in a physically demanding occupation, thinking "ditch digger" would sound classist.

But I believe the point was clear enough. Physical demands can dictate retirement in some occupations, whether or not the person really wants to.

I apologize if any construction workers took it any other way.

One of my brothers is a construction worker (sheet rocker) and had to change lines of work when his back would no longer let him do that.

One of my other brothers is a psychologist & he and his wife will probably keep their family counseling clinic going until he dies.

Sorry for not responding earlier, but I was off to a music gig shortly after I wrote the post in question and just now got to my computer this morning.

Thanks, Kev, for realizing what I was talking about.

While not a carpenter or construction worker by profession, I built a cabin in the woods from the ground up. I carried every piece of lumber down the trail into the center of our 4 acres. The only power tool I used was a 16" chain saw. So I am not ignorant of the process, calculations, and details. When I say "I built", I mean me - alone - except for one of my brothers helping me when we put the rafters in place. I did go to the library for some self help books on the process.

Again, my post was in no way a slap at anyone's occupation. Sorry if anyone took it that way.