Fishman F1 Aura+ vs. Fishman Aura VT Enhance?

[ii Cybershot ii]

I'm curious if anyone has experienced the difference between these?

I think with the Aura VT Enhance, you are stuck with the one preset built-in Aura image?

But with the Aura+, it doesn't pick up any of the top vibrations or other things of that nature?

Thanks everyone.

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

I'm curious if anyone has experienced the difference between these?

I think with the Aura VT Enhance, you are stuck with the one preset built-in Aura image?

But with the Aura+, it doesn't pick up any of the top vibrations or other things of that nature?

Thanks everyone.

Aura + all the way. I've seen a demo from Martin and the demo guy said he personally liked the Aura F1+ best (lol).

PS: Note that he also said to achieve best tone that he had to go in program mode and tweak the 6 EQs bands (3 for piezo and aura image). Note everyone is willing to do that.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Aura + all the way. I've seen a demo from Martin and the demo guy said he personally liked the Aura F1+ best (lol).

PS: Note that he also said to achieve best tone that he had to go in program mode and tweak the 6 EQs bands (3 for piezo and aura image). Note everyone is willing to do that.

For me, simpler is always better. The VT Matrix Enhance works just fine and it's easy. That's why I chose the Anthem SL over the Anthem...less foolin' around with something on the dang guitar.
Buy a Fishman Platinum Pro D.I. / EQ and tweak to you heart's content...it's eaier to reach.

[rmyAddison]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

I'm curious if anyone has experienced the difference between these?

I think with the Aura VT Enhance, you are stuck with the one preset built-in Aura image?

But with the Aura+, it doesn't pick up any of the top vibrations or other things of that nature?

Thanks everyone.

The VT enhance is basically "Aura lite". If you like the sound you get from it you're good to go. The Aura + provides more flexibility, a variety of voices with the different images.

Simple versus complex, one basic tonal palette versus six, choose the one that suits your needs.......

[OneMansGuitar]

The modern Aura system does limit you to one microphone image that Fishman chose.

Chris Martin questioned the point of having 15 images and all that on-board EQ stuff that came with the Aura F1+ system. Frankly, most anyone who had that system ended up picking one image and staying with it.

It DID give you an on-board tuner and phase switch that came in handy. But most pro players they talked to wanted a simpler plug and play experience with as little technology to get through to achieve that. No one wanted to have to read a manual.

But the simplified Aura VT Enhance adds a lot less weight to the instrument and is basically a plug and play improvement over the normal pickup sound.

VT Enhance is not Aura Lite. It is an undersaddle pickup that you "enhance" with a soundboard transducer, which gets blended in before the signal goes to the Volume and Tone sweep controls inside the sound hole.


The Aura VT Enhance has all that, plus the Aura technology, which works like this:

An example of that model is recorded with a variety of high end studio and stage microphones, at various distances - at the same time that they are recording the signal from the undersaddle pickup.

They take that wav of the mic recording and the wav of the pickup, and they slice them into some thousand tiny sections, and then they use various EQ methods to "massage" the pickup wav to match the mic wav as close as possible.

And the resulting Aura "microphone image" is put in an on-board computer that adds micro delay to simulate the distance of the strings from the actual microphone used to make the recording, to give the sound some "air."

And the really impressive part is how that on-board computer reacts in real time to how hard or soft you are playing, etc. to reduce "quack" and better replicate the sound of an acoustic guitar heard through a microphone rather than a pick up. It is hardly perfect in terms of tone, but it is still impressive.

But yes, on the new VT Aura system, you do not get to choose the microphone image. They decide which one sounds best and go with that.

The original Aura pedal had 50 images, the next one had like 20, the on-board F1+ had 9. But now it is 1. And really there was never a great difference between them. The point is, it sounds more like microphone amplification than undersaddle pickup amplification.

Unfortunately Aura is not just an option. They have to do all the recording and slicing and dicing to make it. So you either get a guitar that has it or you don't.

They used to offer a custom image option, which I had done for a Schoenberg Soloist. But I do not think Fishman offers this any more, at least not via Martin.

However, they might allow you to get Aura with an image from a model close to the one you are ordering. Couldn't hurt to ask.

Here is a video where I am demonstrating the new D-18E Retro with the F1+ while a friend of mine plays a Martin with the same pickup but no Aura technology.

No time to do any settings, I just did a quick demo of two random images, asking the audience which one sounded better and went with that.

If you go to 2:10 in the song you can hear each guitar take as short solo, so you can hear each guitar strumming and flatpicking.

[ii Cybershot ii]

Wow incredible information.

Spoon: I much prefer the sound of your guitar in that video. It sounds like an acoustic guitar with a microphone, and the other guitar sounds like just another piezo...


I'm still curious, does the F1 Aura+ pick up body sounds like tapping and the like? Or does only the Enhance offer that?

[martingitdave]

I was going to post a thread about this. Like Spoon, I have a Martin Retro model with the Aura Plus system that I use reguraly. However, unlike Spoon, I don't believe the new system is a change for the better. I will try to, respectfully, disagree on a few points.

My take is that Martin made these changes to sell pickups to people who don't actually gig with pickups. They want the pickup for the occasional open mic, but they don't want to see it, or the controls. They don't need the pickup.

What are my concerns?

Several reasons:

1. The pre blended aura image is fixed at a low image percentage. What you are hearing is mostly pickup and a "little" image. This is similar to the easy mode in the Aura Plus system. For my playing, I need and use more image. I am between 50% and 75% image. I cannot do that with the Aura VT. To me, the Aura VT sounds mostly like a UST pickup.

2. The built in tuner, EQ, compression, feedback control, and phase switch on the Aura Plus are all super useful to me. This is not part of the Aura VT system.

3. The bridge plate sensor picks up the body resonance that more Aura image would otherwise provide. Also, I don't do the percussive stuff.

4. While the overall weight of all of the components in the Aura VT system might be a little lighter (I'm not yet convinced), all of it is stuck to the soundboard! The Aura Plus system puts all the heavy stuff on the acoustically inert sides of the guitar, where it belongs. Granted, the basic UST pickup is the same in both systems. But, the two control wheels, PCBs, and that HUGE bridge plate transducer must cause some acoustic degradation. Take a look at a picture of the innards of the new VT Aura system and tell me it's "lighter."

5. I don't think it sounds any better.

This is just my $0.02. The market dictates what people sell, and people didn't love the complication, or holes in the side of the guitar, that are associated with the Aura Plus. But, I think Fishman built a better system for the gigging musician with the Aura Plus. However, gigging musicians are a small customer base and the new system is less visually obtrusive and appeals to a broader group of Martin customers.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

I'm curious if anyone has experienced the difference between these?

I think with the Aura VT Enhance, you are stuck with the one preset built-in Aura image?

But with the Aura+, it doesn't pick up any of the top vibrations or other things of that nature?

Thanks everyone.

I have the new Martin GPC-18E Aura VT Enhance and I've had Martins with the Onboard Aura+ systems. The Martin GPC-18E Aura VT enhance has a Neumann KM84 Aura Image. If I were Martin, my choice would have been a Ribbon Mic Aura Image. From my experience, the Aura VT Enhance is just barely passable as a standalone system and really needs outboard EQ to sound good. The Enhance soundboard transducer adds top and body vibration to the mix but it does so in a very crisp and trebly tonal character. Add as little as possible Enhance to the Matrix UST/Aura signal, maybe 10-degrees of arc travel of its blend-wheel. To me, the remaining 90% of the Enhance blend-wheel's range is useless. Since I too don't do percussive techniques, I give my nod to the Aura+ system.

I'll try to get some soundtracks of my Martin GPC-18E Aura VT Enhance up on the board soon.

[ii Cybershot ii]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

I have the new Martin GPC-18E Aura VT Enhance and I've had Martins with the Onboard Aura+ systems. The Martin GPC-18E Aura VT enhance has a Neumann KM84 Aura Image. If I were Martin, my choice would have been a Ribbon Mic Aura Image. From my experience, the Aura VT Enhance is just barely passable as a standalone system and really needs outboard EQ to sound good. The Enhance soundboard transducer adds top and body vibration to the mix but it does so in a very crisp and trebly tonal character. Add as little as possible Enhance to the Matrix UST/Aura signal, maybe 10-degrees of arc travel of its blend-wheel. To me, the remaining 90% of the Enhance blend-wheel's range is useless. Since I too don't do percussive techniques, I give my nod to the Aura+ system.

I'll try to get some soundtracks of my Martin GPC-18E Aura VT Enhance up on the board soon.

Good info, that is the exact guitar I am interested in. GPC-18E.

My experience with the VT Enhance in store was that the enhance added a realistic touch, but definitely needed EQ in the upper midrange with it engaged.

How do you like your ES2 systems in comparison? Do you find that the ES2 picks up TOO much of that extra string and body noise, etc? How much string noise does the VT Enhance pick up?

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

Good info, that is the exact guitar I am interested in. GPC-18E.

My experience with the VT Enhance in store was that the enhance added a realistic touch, but definitely needed EQ in the upper midrange with it engaged.

How do you like your ES2 systems in comparison? Do you find that the ES2 picks up TOO much of that extra string and body noise, etc? How much string noise does the VT Enhance pick up?

Simply put, IMHO, the ES2 and Trance systems are the best! I don't find either system picks up any more string noise than any other SBT-based system (because of its positioning, the ES2 is a blend of UST/SBT).

[John Bartus]

The main difference between the Aura F1+ and the original Aura pedals is that the F1+ images are specific to the very model guitar, recorded with a variety of microphones, preamps, and positions. While some of my images on my Spectrum DI matched some of the Breedlove models I play, others were of different brand guitars that just worked better.

The F1+ (and the original Martin Aura preamp) all let the player choose from different images of the very model guitar he is playing. EQ, blend, anti-feedback, even compression can be dialed in. And there are some images that certainly work better than others in a live gig setting. The Aura system works best when the player has more options from which to choose and customize his or her on-stage sound.

Finally, the VT Enhance models with the soundhole-mounted controls preclude the use of a soundhole feedback suppressor -- and those can be really useful in a live gig situation.

Just my $0.02... as always when amplifying acoustics, YMMV!

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by John Bartus

The main difference between the Aura F1+ and the original Aura pedals is that the F1+ images are specific to the very model guitar, recorded with a variety of microphones, preamps, and positions. While some of my images on my Spectrum DI matched some of the Breedlove models I play, others were of different brand guitars that just worked better.



The F1+ (and the original Martin Aura preamp) all let the player choose from different images of the very model guitar he is playing. EQ, blend, anti-feedback, even compression can be dialed in. And there are some images that certainly work better than others in a live gig setting. The Aura system works best when the player has more options from which to choose and customize his or her on-stage sound.



Finally, the VT Enhance models with the soundhole-mounted controls preclude the use of a soundhole feedback suppressor -- and those can be really useful in a live gig situation.



Just my $0.02... as always when amplifying acoustics, YMMV!

John, you make an excellent point about the feedback buster.

[martingitdave]

It has been about six months since this thread was started. In that time, I made some guitar changes.

Due to some poor judgement, I decided to move on from my HD-28E Retro with Aura F1+ to a custom shop dreadnought that I believed had the possibility of being my one and only "do everything" guitar. Hindsight is 20/20, but that was a mistake. The new custom shop was not the tone I ultimately wanted, and I realize I need at least two guitars. I need one guitar strictly for bluegrass to keep up with the other instruments, and one for singer/songwriter material with a highly capable pickup.

For a few months I tried to convince myself that I hadn't made a mistake. I installed 5 combinations of pickup system in the new guitar. None of them were close to the quality and convenience I was getting from the F1+ system in my Retro.

Unfortunately, after deciding that I wanted my Retro back, it was too late. The Aura F1 system is now discontinued and few, if any, of these guitars are available in stock in any shop in my driving vicinity. To complicate matters, I have placed a personal "embargo" on mail order/Internet guitars. I've been disappointed so many times, including the most recent one.

My local Martin dealer did his best to work with his Martin rep to locate one for me. The best he could do was order a few HD-28E Retros with Aura TV Enhance in hopes that I would find one that I liked acoustically, and decide if I could "live" with the new system.

The first one he ordered was "OK." It was too tight acoustically and didn't have as much of the resonant tone as I was looking for. I resolved to keep what I had and live with whatever pickup solution I could find. Then, he called an said his rep sent him one that should be more to my liking. I went over to audition it. It was, acoustically, as good as any Sitka (H)D-28 I've played. I decided to give the Aura a go through their PA system and through their Fender acoustic amps. Frankly, I was surprised by the quality of the pickup tone. It was not as satisfying as the F1+, but I was not totally disappointed either. I missed the detailed controls and tuner, but I decided to give it a go.

As I played it, and adjusted the two thumb wheels, I got a really good tone. How? Here's what I discovered.

1. The tone wheel is designed to "scoop" the mids, and boost the bass and treble.

2. The Aura image percentage is somewhat low, but the enhance wheel does make up for that extra missing "air."

3. The Enhance sensor is high/mid frequency heavy. A little goes a long way.

When I tested the system with the tone wheel set to the flat position, I couldn't dial in much of the enhance wheel. It sounded too nasal in the mid range. However, as I dialed the tone wheel towards the scooped direction, I could increase the amount of enhance that I dialed in. The EQ was compensating in each direction, and meeting in the middle. In my case, I found the most pleasing sound for both pick and fingers to be about 75% scooped and about 25% enhance. The mids missing from the pickup and Aura image get replaced by the enhance, and the enhance also brings some additional resonance and air to the sound.

So, I stand corrected about the system. It might not be as "good", or capable, as the F1+, but it isn't fair to say that it is "bad." I'm reasonably confident that I'll be able to get a good workable tone from this system. I'm also confident that it sounds better than the other aftermarket system I was messing with the last few months.

Another advantage that I've come to appreciate is the lack of holes in the guitar. I didn't think it would make a difference, but it does. Also, it may be my imagination, or just luck of the draw, but this guitar sounds better acoustically than my last one with the F1+ system. The enhance sensor does not appear to be physically heavy. The wheels do not appear to be physically heavy. I think Spoon was correct that this is a lighter system overall. And I do not think it impedes the soundboard as I predicted. Lastly, because of the design of the new system, I can, in theory, replace this system completely without compromising the guitar. They only component that cannot be removed is the battery bay. But, I anticipate any new system to use a 9V battery anyway.

So, when Fishman, LR Baggs, Trance, or ToneDexter devise a new technology that I want to use, I can safely remove this system and install a new one. The F1+, while excellent, has no upgrade path. It is dead and discontinued, but parts will be available. And, if you are a pro who uses the F1+ to make a living, then who cares? It's a tool to do a job. For folks who plug in less frequently, and want an "heirloom" instrument, you have the option to remove the system, or upgrade it in the future. This is a change that no one is presently discussing. But, it might be the most significant change of all.

[Chriscom]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

It has been about six months since this thread was started. In that time, I made some guitar changes....

Very interesting detail Dave. You examine these things in much more depth than I think I am capable of (I'm a pretty impatient guy). Your conclusion is the one I would want to hear since I have the Aura VT Enhance on my GPC-28E. Off the top of my head I'll say I approach the tone control as just a bass/treble slider, and your comments help explain why my brain has been muttering that's close but not quite it. That being said, I think I've ended up close to where you are by instinct--certainly on the Enhance dial, absolutely a little goes a long way (or else maybe we just like the same sound, others no doubt would happily set it somewhere else.).


The new custom shop was not the tone I ultimately wanted, and I realize I need at least two guitars. I need one guitar strictly for bluegrass to keep up with the other instruments, and one for singer/songwriter material with a highly capable pickup.

I think I've come to the same conclusion here as well. I ended up with the GPC-28E when the excellent GC salesman I'd been working with recommended it after months of my going back and forth between a D-28 and various OM-types--the problem being a lot of my songs are very singer-songwriterly including fingerpicking, yet maybe 60% are Strumpalooza. He recommended it as a compromise. It's an amazing guitar and a reasonable compromise for my situation, but I've recently been thinking I'll need (or "need") another guitar that sings a little better for flatpick and strumming.

Any excuse will do, right?

[noledog]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

.....So, when Fishman, LR Baggs, Trance, or ToneDexter devise a new technology that I want to use, I can safely remove this system and install a new one. The F1+, while excellent, has no upgrade path. It is dead and discontinued, but parts will be available. And, if you are a pro who uses the F1+ to make a living, then who cares? It's a tool to do a job. For folks who plug in less frequently, and want an "heirloom" instrument, you have the option to remove the system, or upgrade it in the future. This is a change that no one is presently discussing. But, it might be the most significant change of all.

Dave,

* While I'm sorry you weren't able to get an F1AP Retro, I'm happy for you that the VTAE Retro is working for you. I got one of the last F1AP Retros as you know and am glad of it. There is only one other that I know of locally.

** My 000-18e Retro-F1AP is a very nice & versatile tool in my toolbox as one who makes a living at music. I will say as well that unplugged this guitar is very sweet and seems in a short time to have blossomed a bit.
Now while I enjoy my D-18/M80 a bit more in certain applications and it certainly remains organic, hence an heirloom instrument, the 000-18 could be re-fitted, if necessary, with a new system, tho would likely lose value.

*** While it appears no future upgrades will be available, the F1AP hardware/ust can be removed. Yes the 3 small holes on the side will diminish any resale BUT you can make lemonade and either plug 'em, make 'em a soundport, or jus' leave 'em be. The jack can still be used...etc...etc...I could easily wire in my spare M80, if I felt I couldn't part with this guitar.
Hopefully I'll get my moneys worth out of it and enjoy it as one of "tools".

**** I still say that I would rather the VTAE be "re-imagined" by removing the SBT portion of the system and hardware in a single ribbon mic image that you can blend using the current enhance wheel. That would fatten up the trebles, add air and overall warmth. That said, both the F1AP & VTAE are nice workable systems among the best out there currently.

Keep rockin' Dave & enjoy that beasty HD!

eric