Acoustic Duo, Filling This Space

[Chriscom]

Hey gang, first request for input here. Been reading the forum for months, a huge help.

I'm looking for suggestions on a decent setup to fill a space as large as the space shown in the photo, link below. There's maybe one more row of tables from the perspective of this photo, though the customer area goes off right a little bit more at that point--the bar length stops around here and cuts off to the right, so the last (or first) row of tables goes all the way over to the right wall, cutting off the bar there. Yeah badly described.

It's a guitar/keyboards duo, with two vocalists, male (me) and female (alto/soprano, not me). So guitar/keyboard/vocal/vocal.

What I'm really looking for is a replacement PA. We performed there recently, using my partner's JBL Eon 15 G2. Plenty of volume for that space but it was extremely tricky to lift that nearly 50-pound mass on top of a stick and then manually, with some help, elevate the stick to the desired height.

This is probably as large a venue as I expect to perform with her on our own, in the foreseeable near future--if we do anything larger it'll be plugging into the house or someone else's system. Wondering if one step down to something like the current JBL Eon 615, a svelte 39 pounds, would be enough for this kind of space. Other issues include proper monitor setup but I'll maybe save that for later. Other than monitor shenanigans the setup was:

Keyboard
Martin GPC-28E (won't be bringing that out again) w/ its pickup
Shure SM58s for vocals
Yamaha MG82CX mixer taking all of that to..
Eon 15 G2

Like lots of other folks I've been looking at the Eon One Pro for simplicity--would the bass really not be too buried on the floor?--but it may be 1)Overkill, I don't know and 2)There's another recent thread here raising questions about it, though I can't tell if that's based on the manual or hands-on experience with early release into the wild. Other options I've considered are the Carvin AG300. I understand some amps that are wonderful for guitar and vocals are not great for keyboards, so that's crucial for me.

Apologies for the long post, wanted to be clear. Below is a link the photo that should work, if not I'll think of something else.

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AhnmIq_Imka5hfhFDlVa50Fyx34e4Q

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by Chriscom

Like lots of other folks I've been looking at the Eon One Pro for simplicity--would the bass really not be too buried on the floor?--but it may be...overkill...

You can't phsically bury the bass; only the mids and highs, which is one of the great things about these line array systems. Bottom end is on the floor where it's naturally reinforced rather than dispersed in open air, and the mids and highs are up where they won't be blocked by bodies and other things in the room.

Additionally, the horizontal dispersion will always be wider than it will with a box speaker, unless you have enough of them to aim in all directions needing coverage.

There is absolutely no way the Eon One or the Eon One Pro would be overkill, and you can carry the whole system in one shot, easily. I did it myself with the Eon One three nights in a row on its maiden voyage this last week.

There are many excellent systems out there to consider, depending on how seriously you want to take this, but the JBL Eon One series are definitely contenders, and you may want to get a small mixer and buy the presently available unit rather than the so called Pro, due to the original having a larger driver on the bottom (10" instead of the newer 8") and more power as well, both being concessions to extend battery run time.

Probably the next step up for me will be the HK Nano 608i and it would be a great system for you to look into if it fits into your budget.

[jonfields45]

My duo (2 guitars, or guitar and bass, plus two vocal mics) routinely plays venues this size (and much larger) with a single 23 lb Yamaha DBR10 high and behind.

[jricc]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

My duo (2 guitars, or guitar and bass, plus two vocal mics) routinely plays venues this size (and much larger) with a single 23 lb Yamaha DBR10 high and behind.

I was going to say pretty much the same thing, except I use a JBL Eon610. It's 26 lbs and it has easily handled a ballroom of 300 people (along with Fishman Artist amp as my mixer/monitor)

There are a lot of options, good luck

[Pecx]

Judging by the photo, there's not much space for gear and good positioning. Perhaps something like Bose L1 compact or JBL EON One, could be a better option.

[MikeBmusic]

The simplest/cheapest solution would be to go to a 10" or 12" speaker, as others have mentioned, although if the keyboardist plays a lot of low/bass notes, they may not be as clearly projected.
You can also get a speaker stand with hydraulic assistance or a hand crank.

[Chriscom]

Much thanks for all the responses, I really appreciate it.

Yeah, we were jammed in the far end of the space, right up against the kitchen back there. Challenging in lots of way but a great experience.

Great to know that setups as small as a Eon 610 or a Yamaha DBR10 could handle something like this. Also glad to learn that bass coming out of an Eon One or presumably an L1 Compact would swim around everyone instead of getting lost. If I go with something like the latter, it'll be because of what I'm reading about dispersion--I can think of other venues where we're on the side of a room like that, going wide, rather than at the end of this tunnel.

I expect to use a mixer to get better control over things, regardless, certainly for my duo work.

The replies above answered most of my questions though of course more input is welcome. The only missing piece is anyone with keyboard experience, in addition to MikeBMusic's comment. Though sending a bass through the Yamaha evidently works well, so that should be an indicator--I don't want my keyboard partner to be badly served on the low notes.

P.S. Right after this event I was in a Guitar Center and stumbled across a pneumatic stick. If I don't go with an Eon or L1 approach, that'll be in my future.

[martingitdave]

It sounds to me like you need a compact PA system and probably not an amplifier. Keyboards really need full frequency and flat response. The JBL Eon One might be a good solution for you (I have one) because it has a 10" woofer than can provide more bass and you don't have to lift it. However, the onboard mixer can be problematic to gain stage. I use my Eon One with a QSC Touch Mix 8 mixer, which is heaven sent. That room should not be difficult to amplify with any compact system like the Eon One or Bose L1. Other options that get good reviews are the HK Nano 608i, and the LD Systems Maui units. But, be warned that all of these options have what's called a "mid hole". Because the tweeters and woofer are physically separated, there can be a perception of missing "mids." The Eon One suffers from this slightly.

The unit I am using nowadays is called the Mackie Reach. It has the flattest full frequency response of all the compact systems - much like a good 2-way PA speaker. But, it has excellent dispersion that is much better than a 2-way PA speaker. And, there are no missing frequencies. Unfortunately, it has its own issues related to low input gain for the Line level channels. I have a thread started on this issue that you can search for. That issue aside, it's excellent for this type of venue. However, it does not have a sub woofer, so it's bass response is a matter of taste and preference. I think it's adequate for keyboards, but some might disagree.

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by Chriscom

...we were jammed in the far end of the space, right up against the kitchen back there. Challenging in lots of way but a great experience.

That's world us solo/duo performers get! Ironically though, I was on a stage big enough for dance troups a few months ago, with half a dozen stage monitors to assure full coverage. Nice for a change, but then, back to fitting in behind a table for six.

...sending a bass through the Yamaha evidently works well, so that should be an indicator--I don't want my keyboard partner to be badly served on the low notes.

All the keyboards need is a full range system and any of the better systems out there will provide. I bought my ex her keyboards and we never had any problems there, because full range system.

...I was in a Guitar Center and stumbled across a pneumatic stick. If I don't go with an Eon or L1 approach, that'll be in my future.

If you're referring to speaker stands that help lift your speakers, some love them, but I found mine to be so annoying that I sold it shortly after purchasing it and replaced it with the Ultimate Support TS-90b, what I think of as the best speaker stand ever for gigging musicians.

[krisls]

I regularly do spaces similar to this. If setup space is limited I use two K10's, angled wide for dispersion, on one stand with a dual fork to hold them. Most decent stands will hold that weight no problem. Those pneumatic stands are heavy.

Mixer sits on its case and a couple of slim LED lamps for 'atmosphere' where I can sit them.

Kris

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by MikeBmusic

The simplest/cheapest solution would be to go to a 10" or 12" speaker, as others have mentioned, although if the keyboardist plays a lot of low/bass notes, they may not be as clearly projected.
You can also get a speaker stand with hydraulic assistance or a hand crank.

Hi MBm

A moderately well designed 12" two way speaker cabinet will handle bass, keyboards, guitars and vocals just fine. In fact, for PA work, a 12" two way cabinet balances bass with the mids/highs better than a 15" two or three way cabinet.

Our personal 12" two way cabinets are passive, and weigh about 22 pounds each. We set them on the stand, and either of us old guys (I'm nearly 69 and my giggin partner is mid-50s) can run cabinets up above head height. We usually raise them together.

For some venues, we only use one cabinet.

[Chriscom]

Gang, I can't thank you enough, all these responses have been tremendously helpful.

I'm leaning toward an Eon One-type solution but I obviously have more research to do. I've read some about that mids hole. The most recent comment on the suitability of a decent 12" two-way speaker (or two) and its ability to deliver lower Hz is another angle I'm going to have to look at. One issue is the two flights of stairs I go up and down every day from my apartment. Top of my head that Eon One is 40 pounds, and while I certainly can do that--my bike weighs around 35 pounds--it might get old. Or good exercise!

It's amazing, when you get down to cases, how many different angles you have to look at.

Martingitdave, I can't believe the level of detail you went into on that Mackie Reach thread! Very helpful, as in, I don't want to have to think quite so much!

Have added the TS-90B to my wishlist for future reference. I did hear a K10 at a recent open Mic and it didn't blow me away, but that was one night and I have no idea how well dialed in it was. It's certainly something I could lug around.

Really appreciate everyone. All comments very helpful, even if I didn't respond specifically to them.

[midwinter]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

My duo (2 guitars, or guitar and bass, plus two vocal mics) routinely plays venues this size (and much larger) with a single 23 lb Yamaha DBR10 high and behind.

I just came here to say this. One speaker. High and behind.

[Captain Jim]

Looking at the photo of the room, I'd be leaning towards one of the line array systems. I've been using a Bose L1c for about 8 years, and it would very comfortably handle that room. No messing with monitors. No blowing away the people sitting up front.

Good luck with the decisions.

[Chriscom]

Originally Posted by midwinter

I just came here to say this. One speaker. High and behind.

So no feedback? I mean I've seen photos and videos of that type of setup, so that code has been cracked, but in my inexperience I briefly blew the lid off that place when I got a mic in front of our Eon 15 G2 (think I have that right) so that is non-good.

Anyway, I know that's a separate discussion, and I've read a lot about that here, will study some more.