ToneDexter with LB-6 vs. K&K; with sound clips

[James May]

We were contacted by a high profile artist who uses LB-6 pickups and wants to try ToneDexter. The LB-6 is an integrated saddle assembly containing 6 individual piezo elements, one under each string. They are all combined to one mono output. To greatly improve feedback immunity, G and B strings are out of phase with the rest of them.

Because it is a mixed phase pickup, it requires special training procedures for ToneDexter to work properly. Since we hadn’t had any firsthand experience with it, I bought one and had it installed in my Voyage Air to use as a test bed.

In parallel, high end guitar maker John Buscarino is also using LB-6 pickups along with evaluating ToneDexter for suitability to use in his guitar/amp packages. John and I have been comparing notes.

At the very least, the user needs to not play on the G and B strings while training, otherwise it results in a weak and hollow sounding WaveMap. This is to be expected, because the training only knows frequency – it doesn’t know from what string it came from. So you can image how getting 200Hz from one string then getting it again from another string, but this time out of phase, would tend to confuse things.

John and I both found that the best results are obtained by either slackening the G and B strings and muting them with something, or removing them altogether during training. This avoids any sympathetic vibration and results in truly excellent WaveMaps that convey the warmth of the guitar’s tone.

I can’t get it to feedback in the lab, the sound is very clear and punchy, and with ToneDexter, it sounds like a guitar! I'm actually quite impressed.

Edit: something to hear!

This first example is: K&K raw, K&K ToneDexter, LB6 raw, LB6 ToneDexter. No EQ on the tracks.


This 2nd example is the same, but with bit of treble boost on the K&K ToneDexter, and a bit of bass boost on the LB6 ToneDexter.

[MrErikJ]

I like to imagine the high-profile artist is JT himself, as I can't think of anyone besides Doyle Dykes who uses that pickup exclusively. Well, besides me but I'm far from high-profile.

I've always thought the LB6 was an impressive pickup and I committed to it awhile back so I could keep my set-up simple and consistent. I've been curious how the Tonedexter would cooperate with it but I assumed it would work as the Barbera Soloist is similar and I know that's been trained successfully. However, I didn't want to be the first person to try it

I'd love to hear how it turned out and I hope I can give it a try myself sometime.

[James May]

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

...

I'd love to hear how it turned out and I hope I can give it a try myself sometime.

I just edited the original post and added sound clips.

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by James May

I just edited the original post and added sound clips.

It sounds very nice, James! I don't know what the actual guitar sounds like but I trust that if you're impressed it must be a good representation! It's also worth noting how similar the K&K and the LB6 sound unprocessed.

[jonfields45]

The ToneDexter does a simply great job. I hear none of the chorus effect that I hear in other systems and it is pick-up agnostic to the max.

When ToneDexter is on their their third or forth generation and adds reverb and compression, my ToneDEQ is headed to the trash!

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by James May

We were contacted by a high profile artist who uses LB-6 pickups and wants to try ToneDexter. The LB-6 is an integrated saddle assembly containing 6 individual piezo elements, one under each string. They are all combined to one mono output. To greatly improve feedback immunity, G and B strings are out of phase with the rest of them.

Because it is a mixed phase pickup, it requires special training procedures for ToneDexter to work properly. Since we hadn’t had any firsthand experience with it, I bought one and had it installed in my Voyage Air to use as a test bed.

In parallel, high end guitar maker John Buscarino is also using LB-6 pickups along with evaluating ToneDexter for suitability to use in his guitar/amp packages. John and I have been comparing notes.

At the very least, the user needs to not play on the G and B strings while training, otherwise it results in a weak and hollow sounding WaveMap. This is to be expected, because the training only knows frequency – it doesn’t know from what string it came from. So you can image how getting 200Hz from one string then getting it again from another string, but this time out of phase, would tend to confuse things.

John and I both found that the best results are obtained by either slackening the G and B strings and muting them with something, or removing them altogether during training. This avoids any sympathetic vibration and results in truly excellent WaveMaps that convey the warmth of the guitar’s tone.

I can’t get it to feedback in the lab, the sound is very clear and punchy, and with ToneDexter, it sounds like a guitar! I'm actually quite impressed.

Edit: something to hear!

This first example is: K&K raw, K&K ToneDexter, LB6 raw, LB6 ToneDexter. No EQ on the tracks.


This 2nd example is the same, but with bit of treble boost on the K&K ToneDexter, and a bit of bass boost on the LB6 ToneDexter.

The LB6 sounds great Dexterized! Congrats.

I'm guessing that the dry LB6 sample sounds thin because 1Mohm isn't an adequate input impedance. It was my understanding that ToneDexter would compensate for a thin passive UST signal, but it must not be compensating entirely if its necessary to boost the bass a bit with the Dexterized signal. An outstanding result, nevertheless.

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

The LB6 sounds great Dexterized! Congrats.

I'm guessing that the dry LB6 sample sounds thin because 1Mohm isn't an adequate input impedance. It was my understanding that ToneDexter would compensate for a thin passive UST signal, but it must not be compensating entirely if its necessary to boost the bass a bit with the Dexterized signal. An outstanding result, nevertheless.

I agree, but couldn't you use another preamp to address this? Having an endpin preamp on the LB6 or some other sort of preamp should fix this, correct? Not to continue w/the JT examples, but Sweet Baby James runs his passive LB6 into a Tonebone PZ Pre and then into his Aura. I'm assuming that serves to impedance match as the Aura probably has more than enough gain available to boost the LB6. James May can probably shed more light on whether this would work or not but I think there's a variety of easy fixes for that.

[James May]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

The LB6 sounds great Dexterized! Congrats.

I'm guessing that the dry LB6 sample sounds thin because 1Mohm isn't an adequate input impedance. It was my understanding that ToneDexter would compensate for a thin passive UST signal, but it must not be compensating entirely if its necessary to boost the bass a bit with the Dexterized signal. An outstanding result, nevertheless.

It's a well educated guess, but at this point I'm not sure that's what is causing the bass to be slightly less robust than expected. I think I used 2-3dB bass boost on that 2nd file, to taste, which is quite a modest amount and certainly workable in practice.

It may have something to do with the mixed phase nature of the LB6. Even though I did remove the G and B strings during training, the pickup still has some bleed through between elements.

I plan on investigating further, but for now have confirmed to my satisfaction that the pickup is eminently usable with ToneDexter.

[James May]

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

I agree, but couldn't you use another preamp to address this? Having an endpin preamp on the LB6 or some other sort of preamp should fix this, correct? Not to continue w/the JT examples, but Sweet Baby James runs his passive LB6 into a Tonebone PZ Pre and then into his Aura. I'm assuming that serves to impedance match as the Aura probably has more than enough gain available to boost the LB6. James May can probably shed more light on whether this would work or not but I think there's a variety of easy fixes for that.

If impedance were the issue, then yes you certainly could use an on board preamp or one of those that is housed in the cable plug, en route to ToneDexter.

But, per my previous post, I'm not convinced impedance is the cause.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

I agree, but couldn't you use another preamp to address this? Having an endpin preamp on the LB6 or some other sort of preamp should fix this, correct? Not to continue w/the JT examples, but Sweet Baby James runs his passive LB6 into a Tonebone PZ Pre and then into his Aura. I'm assuming that serves to impedance match as the Aura probably has more than enough gain available to boost the LB6. James May can probably shed more light on whether this would work or not but I think there's a variety of easy fixes for that.

I think that the bass control on ToneDexter is doing well enough, for my needs at least, to make another gain stage unnecessary. I was just surprised that a bass boost was needed at all. In theory, at least, ToneDexter should take that thin sounding LB6 signal and make it sound like the (presumably) well-balanced mic signal.

Some months back, in one of the ToneDexter discussions, I mentioned some concern that ToneDexter's 1Mohm input impedance would be too low to get a full signal from certain passive piezo pickups. I was told that ToneDexter could compensate for a thin input signal. Apparently it does compensate well enough that a basic bass boost will make up for any shortcoming.

It would be interesting to have the training mic recording also. Even with the unEQed ToneDexter sample, those Dexterized bass notes sound fuller than with the LB6 sample. One wonders how much of the bass boost is actually needed to approximate the guitar's acoustic tone, and how much (if any) is just helping to satisfy my personal taste in tone.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by James May

It's a well educated guess, but at this point I'm not sure that's what is causing the bass to be slightly less robust than expected. I think I used 2-3dB bass boost on that 2nd file, to taste, which is quite a modest amount and certainly workable in practice.

It may have something to do with the mixed phase nature of the LB6. Even though I did remove the G and B strings during training, the pickup still has some bleed through between elements.

I plan on investigating further, but for now have confirmed to my satisfaction that the pickup is eminently usable with ToneDexter.

Yes, a 2 or 3db bass boost is quite a modest adjustment to get to ideal (for my taste, at least) results. Well done.


Are you saying that you haven't noticed any bass loss (with the Dexterized tone) with passive USTs like the Fishman AG series pickups or the DTAR Sadducer?

It would indeed be a curious anomaly if the LB6's phase inverted crystals are causing some bass loss. Its not much of a practical problem, however, if it only takes a 2 or 3db bass boost to compensate. As you've stated, the ToneDexter/LB6 combination is very workable and (as an extra bonus) it may well be less feedback prone than most of what else is out there.

[James May]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

...

Are you saying that you haven't noticed any bass loss (with the Dexterized tone) with passive USTs like the Fishman AG series pickups or the DTAR Sadducer?

...

Correct, I did not feel the need to boost bass with the AG series passive (which I removed and replaced with the LB6).

The perception of needing or not needing extra bass is slightly complicated by the resonance trimming we do at the end of training, for the sake of extra feedback immunity. It always makes the WaveMap a little less bassy sounding than the mic, but on actual use works out better. Because of not fighting feedback, even if you decide to EQ up the bass a couple of dB, you're still better off.

[troggg]

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

I can't think of anyone besides Doyle Dykes who uses that pickup exclusively.

There are quite a few good youtube clips of a guy named Chuck Cannon who swears by the LB6 paired with his banner LG-2. I certainly find his sound (not to mention performances) compelling in all sorts of exotic tunings.

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by troggg

There are quite a few good youtube clips of a guy named Chuck Cannon who swears by the LB6 paired with his banner LG-2. I certainly find his sound (not to mention performances) compelling in all sorts of exotic tunings.

Oh, I'm sure there are plenty but in terms of big time artists, the mainstay LB6 guys are typically James Taylor, Doyle Dykes, & Phil Keaggy. I'm sure there's even more than that but those are the ones that are usually mentioned by Baggs

I'll check out Chuck but I also swear by the LB6. I think that, along with the K&K (though I need to try Dazzo), it is the most practical & toneful piezo out there. As a fingerpicker, I prefer it to the K&K but it's hard to go wrong with either.

[troggg]

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

Oh, I'm sure there are plenty but in terms of big time artists, the mainstay LB6 guys are typically James Taylor, Doyle Dykes, & Phil Keaggy. I'm sure there's even more than that but those are the ones that are usually mentioned by Baggs

I'll check out Chuck but I also swear by the LB6. I think that, along with the K&K (though I need to try Dazzo), it is the most practical & toneful piezo out there. As a fingerpicker, I prefer it to the K&K but it's hard to go wrong with either.

Well he does have a country music song of the year to his name

Isn't the deal with the LB6 that it's a hard install that can go wrong, but if it's done right you're golden?