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Old 08-21-2017, 11:19 AM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
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I'm new to this and researching what small tube amp (suspect =/< 5 watts) might be appropriate for my very limited needs (amateur home play). My question here isn't so much about "which amp" as it is "aren't pedals just another form of electronic modeling that purists decry?"

I see lots of folks using pedals to get distortion and other effects on small/mid-size amps (20w or so). If a tube amp can be overdriven using increased gain and a lower master volume, why use an overdrive pedal on that amp?

I came across this vid on Fender's Supersonic 22 (this one's a custom w/better speaker w/more headroom):



I really like the sound of the clean and distorted on this amp - it seems to offer complete versatility. Andy sounds like it's unusual to get sounds like that without any pedals, but this 22w amp can do it. That suggests other amps cannot, and one of my questions here is "why not?" Apart from the extra 7 watts, what does this amp have that a Blues Jr, for example, does not?

Additional research on the Supersonic found people were selling them because they were just too much amp for their needs, which suggests it needs to be played at a very high volume to get those versatile sounds. If so, that doesn't meet my needs (I'm not interested in external attenuator).

So, what is it that determines whether an amp needs pedals to create great sounds? Loud volume from lots of watts? Or something else?

Also, if pedals are responsible for creating these sounds in lesser amps and/or at lower volumes, aren't they just another form of electronic modeling? The amp's not doing the work, the pedal is, isn't it? If so, why not just add pedals to a Champ 20 or 40 s/s and call it good (except for lack of tube warmth)?

Ideally, I'd like to avoid the pedal path of constantly seeking this or that effect. I'd like a competent amp, alone, to handle the tonal spectrum from fender clean to mesa crunch and dirt, BUT I don't want excessive volume. I want enough clean headroom with an on-board attenuator that allows early breakup using gain and a master volume to keep things quietly fun. Tube-driven reverb and tremolo would be nice. The only place I'm seeing these kinds of attributes are in the boutique builders (Milkman and Carr, for example).

Another question - if I'm inclined to go fender for sounds similar to that supersonic, how to choose between the many fender offerings, as far as sound is concerned? Is there an article or video that discusses the nuanced differences between the models? If you wanted a baby supersonic (manageable at home volumes), which would you choose?

Any input appreciated.
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:48 AM
muscmp muscmp is offline
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you can indeed get a great overdriven sound out of a 22 watt amp but it will be way too loud. if that is ok for your household, then it will be fine. if not, you'll need a smaller wattage amp, 5 watt or so, cranked to get that sound. note that not all amps have a master volume but that does HELP to achieve that sound.

best recommendation is to go to your big box store with your guitar and play as many amps as you can. come home and shop online so that you know the difference between the store(s) and online. most believe that the amp is 40% of their electric sound. no need for an attenuator if you buy correctly.

i like the small wattage amps myself. i like to combine thru an aby pedal, my vibro champ and champ, crank them and i get a glorious lead sound. if i'm going for rhythm guitar, i'll use my 58 deluxe clone or deluxe reverb clean for the headroom.

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Old 08-21-2017, 01:01 PM
Steve DeRosa Steve DeRosa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post
I'm new to this and researching what small tube amp (suspect =/< 5 watts) might be appropriate for my very limited needs (amateur home play)...If a tube amp can be overdriven using increased gain and a lower master volume, why use an overdrive pedal on that amp?

...So, what is it that determines whether an amp needs pedals to create great sounds? Loud volume from lots of watts? Or something else?

...Ideally, I'd like to avoid the pedal path of constantly seeking this or that effect. I'd like a competent amp, alone, to handle the tonal spectrum from Fender clean to Mesa crunch and dirt, BUT I don't want excessive volume. I want enough clean headroom, with an on-board attenuator that allows early breakup using gain and a master volume to keep things quietly fun. Tube-driven reverb and tremolo would be nice. The only place I'm seeing these kinds of attributes are in the boutique builders (Milkman and Carr, for example)...
In order - and keeping it as simple as possible in the interest of brevity:
  • That's a question I've often asked as well; there's just something about tube OD that makes it synergistic with your touch - if you take the time to learn how to work your amp there's a whole world of tone color available (literally) at your fingertips - and back in the day that was the only way to get "that sound." I remember a former bandmate back in the mid-80's who got one of those Carvin X-100 Boogie-clones with the oak cab and rattan grille, and proceeded to get his OD sound with a ProCo Rat - the expression on his face when I showed him how to do it with pre-gain/master volume/EQ was priceless...
  • A lot of it is in the circuit-design parameters - for a given wattage, some amps are more or less prone to breakup than others - but a savvy player can fine-tune things to his/her needs by choosing the right tube complement. FYI tubes with the same nomenclature - 12AX7, 6L6, EL34, etc. - from different manufacturers often have dramatically different sonic characteristics, and by placing the right tube(s) in the right position(s) you can tailor the gain structure and tone to achieve your signature sound; IME this can be quite the rabbit hole, and until you really know your way around tube amps (more specifically your tube amp) the easiest way to modify your tone is to go with a replacement speaker. As long as you observe the correct impedance (check your owners' manual or amp chassis) and go with a power rating higher than that of your amplifier, you're free to experiment to your heart's content; BTW, there's no law that says you can't use a "British" sounding speaker in an "American" amp, or vice versa - at different times in their history Ampeg and Fender both used Celestions (the quintessential "British" speaker), and Vox offered JBL's (the first premium "American" speaker) as a factory option in the mid-60's. An additional parameter to consider is the efficiency rating (expressed as dB/W/M); since a more-efficient speaker will produce more volume (sometimes considerably more) for a given input, you're getting the sonic equivalent of "free watts" - which, with the right tubes, can turn your practice rig into a little tone monster that'll handle a small/medium-size gig with no problem...
  • There are several reasonably-priced amps on the market that have some sort of built-in attenuation, in addition to pre-gain/master volume. I'm most familiar with the Bugera combos, and as the owner of both a V5 and V22 I'd recommend one of these for a first tube amp; one of the features of the current line is the ability to swap power tubes without the need for a bias job (matching/optimizing the amp circuitry to the tubes - about $100+/- in my town) - handy if you want to experiment - and the fact that they're available for under $400 street (well under in the case of the V5) is just icing on the cake. If you don't need channel switching the Carvin Vintage 16 is competitively priced with the V22, and I can personally vouch for their tone and rugged construction; finally, if you want something with all the bells and whistles check out the Carvin V3MC combo: three full-featured independent channels, power levels from a home-friendly 7 watts to a gigworthy 50 (plan on playing out sooner or later - trust me), and a 12" speaker in a 36-pound package (less than many comparably-powered solid-state amps, BTW) for around $700 - well under the street price of a SuperSonic 22...
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Old 08-21-2017, 01:13 PM
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"Most modern high-gain, channel-switching amps go way beyond the simple volume-and-master format these days, offering Drive and Volume controls within individual channels, with a global Master to govern the final output." http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscella...tube-amp/22692

I like spanky clean, Mesa gain, and tube driven reverb tanks. I like Mesa.
But there are plenty of amps with these options..
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Old 08-21-2017, 01:27 PM
paulp1960 paulp1960 is offline
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In the old days people played valve amplifiers that only had a single master volume knob. The only way to achieve distortion would be to crank up the amp until the power stage starts to distort. Then people used overdrive or boost pedals to achieve the kind of sound they liked and the overall sound was a mix of the power amp distortion and the distortion from the overdrive pedal.

Later on amp manufacturers cottoned on to the fact that players wanted distortion available at lower volumes and the pre-amp gain knob appeared and that allowed you to run the pre-amp into distortion and control the volume with the master volume knob.

IMHO a lot of great tones were created with a big clean powerful valve amp with a bunch of pedals driving the amp.

Players like SRV and even the sound of early AC/DC don't use loads of distortion on their amps.

So yes you could buy a valve amp with gain and master volume and channel switching but don't always assume that the pre-amp distortion you can create will sound any better than a decent analog overdrive pedal that contains transistors, not valves.

Heaven for me would be just that: A simple valve amp with a great clean sound that starts to break up nicely and a bunch of decent pedals plugged in.
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Old 08-21-2017, 03:28 PM
Wozer Wozer is offline
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I agree that tube distortion usually rules over transistor, but that of course is a personal taste...

I remember back in the '80s searching for the sound I wanted, didn't have funds for a Marshall or such and had a Peavy 50w classic with 4 10" speakers...played with this, that, etc...then read an article where the lead guitarist from 38 Special was interviewed and he pointed out he used an Ibanez tube screamer in front of his Marshall as a boost/pre-amp...before this I had played with 2 distortions in a row (mostly a failure), but THAT was the ticket...I had a tube screamer (most terrible distortion box IMO) and that really made the amp zing when used as a pre...the final clicker in a very unique sound was the day I had my Echoplex hooked up into the effects loop (I've always preferred echo post distortion) and made the mistake of hooking the input to the amp from the HIGH output of the Echoplex...that was such a different sound people were always asking me just how I had modded that amp (and yeah, it would blow tubes in a second if I even thought about turning it to 10).

in the case of that amp I guess the distortion was all transistor as that amp has a solid state preamp and tube power amp...in my present day world I use a rack mount tube distortion (a Chandler, again from the '80s) and still use the tube screamer as a pre and that really tickles my fancy...

since then I've learned many guitarists do as such using various boxes as their pre/boost.
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Old 08-21-2017, 04:28 PM
roylor4 roylor4 is offline
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A LOT of amps can do similar tones of the supersonic at lower wattage and at a much lower price. The best, affordable, low wattage 2 channel tube amp that provides great cleans and excellent distortion sounds is the Blackstar HT-5R

The Blackstar HT-1R is also excellent sounding, but only one watt. Great cleans and dirt. There are many, many other amps that can do the tones you speak of. Some at low volume and some at ear-bleed levels.

I used to be a die-hard, tube only fanatic (I've been playing Blues harp for 25 years and have had dozens of tube amps). I have since come to appreciate modeling amps, especially for guitar. The Katana 50 is worth a look IMO.

You need to do some 1st hand investigating to know if you want a 2-3 channel tube amp, a tube amp and a pedal or two or go the modeling route. Even most avid music fans have a hard time telling if an amp is a 100 watt amp driving a full sized 4 X 10" or a modeling amp with an emulated speaker out into a pa. The new stuff being made is actually pretty incredible.
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Last edited by roylor4; 08-21-2017 at 06:32 PM. Reason: thought about response
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Old 08-22-2017, 12:34 AM
jseth jseth is offline
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Chris; although I appreciate the need to have a "distorted" sound at a low volume from whichever amplifier you are using, there is SOMETHING that happens when you play your guitar through an amplifier and reach a certain volume threshold where that overdrive/distortion occurs...

A pedal can SIMULATE that sound, but the interaction between player/guitar/amplifier is a very special thing and is quite difficult to emulate with pedals or modeling. those who say "it's the same thing" have not really experienced the "real deal"...

Certainly, modeling and pedals have their place... but there is just something very special about an amplifier and a guitar and a player... and what happens at different volume levels.

Also, make no mistake about it: it takes time and experimentation and "fiddling about' with ANY rig to discover that interaction... learning how to get the sounds you want from any given rig is worth spending the time to uncover.

There is a very palpable aspect to the interplay where the amplifier becomes a part of the overall, as opposed to the medium through which it is transmitted...
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Old 08-22-2017, 08:03 AM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
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I think I'm starting to get it. My questions:

"Aren't pedals just another form of electronic modeling that purists decry?"
Sounds like the answer to this one is "yes." I was confused because I'd read people who used pedals while bashing modeling amps as artificial. I also hear the sensible position re: getting a good amp, don't worry about trying to distort it, just run it through a bunch of pedals. I know I've loved that sound, too.

"If a tube amp can be overdriven using increased gain and a lower master volume, why use an overdrive pedal on that amp?"
I think the answer to this one is the pedal gets you close to the sound at a lower decibel level.

"Andy sounds like it's unusual to get [nice breakup/distortion] without any pedals, but this 22w amp can do it. That suggests other amps cannot, and one of my questions here is "why not?" Apart from the extra 7 watts, what does this amp have that a Blues Jr, for example, does not?"
I'm still unsure about this one. What is it about the supersonic that's different from other amps in the same power category? Steve says it's in the "circuit-design parameters." I think that's code for "they're all different - you'll have to spend the rest of your life listening to amps, buying the "right one" then hearing another that's "righter" and selling the first, repeat ad infinitum - that's what I was afraid of! I'd like one amp to rule them all (sorry, muscmp with your 4!).

"Another question - if I'm inclined to go fender for sounds similar to that supersonic, how to choose between the many fender offerings, as far as sound is concerned? Is there an article or video that discusses the nuanced differences between the models? If you wanted a baby supersonic (manageable at home volumes), which would you choose?"
Still looking for specific input on this one - Fender's a confusing world to a neophyte.

Thanks for the references to particular brands/models. I'm listening to all the amps mentioned - amazing tonal variety and I can see why people refer to "their sound" when finding one they like. For the time being, I'm using this input to get more familiar with my old 2-channel Peavey 110 s/s. It has nice features (incl separate tones for clean and lead, different "voices" for each channel, footswitch, spring reverb, etc., but no effects loop) and purports to act like a tube amp, even if its sound isn't as good, so cheap to experiment on. I can load the preamp and set the master volume, then use the guitar's volume knob to control distortion, just like the big boys. I've decided I don't care for speaker size under 10" - just not enough oomph, to me. I like a combo for convenience.

Wozer - I'm to where I get a good 65-70% of what you said. I thought distortion pedals went in front of the amp (as a preamp?). I understand some effects (delay?) are better after the preamp (via effects loop?). More cyphering to do this process, but thanks for the info.

roylor4 - I like that HT-5R - nice feature set and decent sound but (horrors!) some say it's a hybrid that first goes into transistors (preamp?). Actually, I don't really care about that stuff, but it's emblematic of the nuance/nerd issues that distract from the bigger picture. The Boss sounds good, but gave me "model amp" flashbacks to my Mustang II v. 2 that I've never managed to use (99 presets that don't sound good at all, to me). Mustang's headed to the craigslist ranch, I'm afraid.

For reference, here's the 5w Milkman Half Pint combo with the gorgeous clean tone I like (at 32 seconds), but I'd like to find that tone cheaper than $2,400! These Milkman amps are based on some kind of Fender model:

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Old 08-22-2017, 08:46 AM
roylor4 roylor4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisN View Post
<snip>

roylor4 - I like that HT-5R - nice feature set and decent sound but (horrors!) some say it's a hybrid that first goes into transistors (preamp?). Actually, I don't really care about that stuff, but it's emblematic of the nuance/nerd issues that distract from the bigger picture. The Boss sounds good, but gave me "model amp" flashbacks to my Mustang II v. 2 that I've never managed to use (99 presets that don't sound good at all, to me). Mustang's headed to the craigslist ranch, I'm afraid.

For reference, here's the 5w Milkman Half Pint combo with the gorgeous clean tone I like (at 32 seconds), but I'd like to find that tone cheaper than $2,400! These Milkman amps are based on some kind of Fender model:
<snip>
I don't know where you gleaned this information. The Blackstar uses a ECC83 preamp tube. Both preamp and power sections are tube driven

I understand if you want to totally get away from modeling. Your choice, of course.

I can tell you from personal experience that the tonal palette of the Blackstar can provide the cleans you want. My best friend and jamming buddy play one and I have plugged in several time. Exceptional sounding amp, IMO.

Lot's of other amps can give you that sparkling clean with plenty of headroom too. You can get those kind of tones from a Silvertone 1482 and old Alamos too. I have had several Alamo and Silvertone amps through the years. You will NOT find YOUR tone by surfing youtube. Every amp interacts differently with different guitars and pickups.
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Old 08-22-2017, 08:55 AM
Paleolith54 Paleolith54 is offline
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You're taking a nice analytical approach to this, for which I commend you. You should continue that until you focus in on what it is you want to actually do: low-wattage amp (1-5 watts) pushed, higher-wattage amp through a power soak, pedals into a clean amp, digital modelers into front end or effects return of clean amp OR into FRFR speaker OR into a PA OR into computer, analogue modelers (like Tech 21 Flyrigs) into front end or effects return of clean amp OR into FRFR speaker OR into a PA OR into computer... see what I mean?

You're getting plenty of ideas here to help, of course. But once you've narrowed down more clearly what you want to do you'll get more focused advice. Example:

"I want three basic tones: a good clean, rock crunch, and soaring lead tones with humbuckers at a volume that's greater than conversational level but not at hearing-damaging levels. I want to spend no more than $750, and only want to buy new. I'm open to digital modeling but am leaning toward a clean one-channel amp (tubes or not) with a half-dozen or so pedals in front for dirt and effects."

That will make it easier for you to start making actual buying decisions when the time comes, I think, and make it easier to see if your expecations and budget match.
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Old 08-22-2017, 09:50 AM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
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Originally Posted by roylor4 View Post
I don't know where you gleaned this information. The Blackstar uses a ECC83 preamp tube. Both preamp and power sections are tube driven

I understand if you want to totally get away from modeling. Your choice, of course.

I can tell you from personal experience that the tonal palette of the Blackstar can provide the cleans you want. My best friend and jamming buddy play one and I have plugged in several time. Exceptional sounding amp, IMO.

Lot's of other amps can give you that sparkling clean with plenty of headroom too. You can get those kind of tones from a Silvertone 1482 and old Alamos too. I have had several Alamo and Silvertone amps through the years. You will NOT find YOUR tone by surfing youtube. Every amp interacts differently with different guitars and pickups.
Re: Tube-Driven - I can't find the exact comment I was thinking of, but here's another that's similar:
"The drive on all HT "venue" series amps is clipping diode not true tube overdrive. Think of it as a drive pedal built between the pre amp and power section. Not a bad thing by any means. For real tube saturation you have to crank the clean channel on the amp." Found in Comments: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK6zz_gmuZ0 No idea what it means - it was the other comment I can't find that used the terms "hybrid" and "into transistors" to suggest the same thing. I very much liked the Blackstar's sound. I've got a couple Blackstar Flys, too, so I've nothing against Blackstar!

Re: Modeling - Not against it, just against the Mustang I've got - it's complicated and limited, at the same time. Without a computer, you have start with one of their models that's closest to what you think you want to hear, and carve away effects, etc. you don't want, add others you do, then save it as an unmarked lighted post. If you don't leave breadcrumbs, you can't find it again. I understand the Mustang's best used in conjunction with FUSE software, the FUSE clip forum, and a computer, to build the tone(s) you want, and I just want to spend my time otherwise, so I need a less technical amp. I spend too much time on computers as it is - I like guitars/amps to get me away from computers.

I'll check out Silvertone and Alamo - I've not heard of those. As a practical matter, I'm limited to youtube sounds, and I try to hear amps I'm interested in through different guitars/pickups. I'm in no hurry and am enjoying the ride.
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Old 08-22-2017, 09:57 AM
ChrisN ChrisN is offline
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Originally Posted by Paleolith54 View Post
You're taking a nice analytical approach to this, for which I commend you. You should continue that until you focus in on what it is you want to actually do: low-wattage amp (1-5 watts) pushed, higher-wattage amp through a power soak, pedals into a clean amp, digital modelers into front end or effects return of clean amp OR into FRFR speaker OR into a PA OR into computer, analogue modelers (like Tech 21 Flyrigs) into front end or effects return of clean amp OR into FRFR speaker OR into a PA OR into computer... see what I mean?

You're getting plenty of ideas here to help, of course. But once you've narrowed down more clearly what you want to do you'll get more focused advice. Example:

"I want three basic tones: a good clean, rock crunch, and soaring lead tones with humbuckers at a volume that's greater than conversational level but not at hearing-damaging levels. I want to spend no more than $750, and only want to buy new. I'm open to digital modeling but am leaning toward a clean one-channel amp (tubes or not) with a half-dozen or so pedals in front for dirt and effects."

That will make it easier for you to start making actual buying decisions when the time comes, I think, and make it easier to see if your expecations and budget match.
Thanks - I'm taking analytical baby steps, including by asking questions here, to try to limit the $$ lost due to jumping too soon, before I've reached the answers to the questions you posed. At this point, I don't know what I don't know, and could easily make an expensive mistake before I gain the information/experienced needed to make an informed purchase of a nice amp that best suits my determined needs.
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Old 08-22-2017, 10:42 AM
roylor4 roylor4 is offline
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Silvertone was the Sears brand in the 60's and much earlier. I'm not sure if Alamo was built by their own factory or not.

In the 50's and 60's, there were many tube amps with different cosmetics that were built by the same companies. Kalamazoo, Kay, Harmony, Valco, Supro, National, Premier. Many times, these amps far exceeded the tone of the amps they attempted to emulate from both Fender and Gibson.

For small medium clubs, many guys wouldn't use anything but Ampegs. The Reverberocket was a beast.

I have had the Alamo Challenger and the Kalamazoo Model 1 (Blackface) that easily spanked their Fender and Gibson counterparts.

Boutique built, production built, Vintage, vintage repro - the rabbit-hole you are going down is a deep one.
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Old 08-22-2017, 11:01 AM
jseth jseth is offline
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Chris;

Looks like the Half-Pint is built to a Fender Princeton Reverb platform... they are great little amps (the Princeton) and can be had for much less than you might think, for a 40+ year old classic. A lot of folks want the Princeton Reverb, which was an option years after the model was introduced... a (silverface) Princeton can be had for less than a Grand.

Bullfrog Music, my favorite store here in Corvallis, moved and expanded their inventory. Now they have a bunch of electric guitars and amps, notably the Blackstar line-up and Vox. They make an amp that is remarkably similar to a Fender Deluxe Reverb that is VERY nice; all tube, one 12" speaker, very clean looking. Don't recall the number of the model, but I believe it goes for around $700... the little baby Blackstar amps are a lot of fun; you can get one with an extension speaker for $100! They can be battery-powered as well - pretty cool sounds from such a small inexpensive amp, although nothing like a "real" tube amp.

Lots of differing opinions (no big surprise!) from a lot of different folks... as always, it comes down to what YOU like, what YOU want to hear, in whatever size/dollar amount you want to spend.

Let us know what you decide...
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