|
|
#1
09-12-2017, 07:26 AM
|
|||
|
|||
Installed a Fishman Matrix Infinity and I hate it -- now what?
Hey all -- longtime reader. Lots of good advice on here, thanks everyone who contributes!
Recently, I had a Fishman Matrix Infinity installed in my Guild DG40C (1980 Guild Flat-top Cutaway)... and I pretty much hate it. (It was professionally installed -- though I have no idea what that means. I went to a guitar store in the area [Not GC] and had their guy do it. He was the one who talked me into the Fishman, telling me Martin is sending it out with all of their AEs these days. I had gone in there wanting the Anthem...) Bass strings sound fine, but the B,E (especially) sound -- IDK how to describe it -- brittle I guess. A kazoo-like sound that is all I seem to hear whenever I strum or even finger pick hard. Also it seems hyper sensitive. When I fret a chord I can hear the click of the string on the fret. I've tried everything to fix it post guitar, and nothing gives me what I really want. (Which is just my GUILD sound.) If I wanted my Guild to sound like an electric, I'd just get an electric. I got the new MESA Boogie Rosette -- figuring, well that thing has every adjustment under the sun. Surely I can fix this through that... no dice. I am not a sound guy. Maybe a good one could have done it, but all of my fiddling and twiddling just produced variations of the Kazoo. So, that went back. I got a BOSS VE8 -- that has a "We fix the sound of your Guitar" knob, and that sounds like what I wanted. But, nope. Same thing. It simply muddied the problem or amplified it -- take your pick -- but the kazoo was still singing brightly as ever. I played a church outdoor set this past Saturday, and a guy in the church tells me he has a Fishman Amp made for this and I can fix it through that. We plugged in, and I played, and he adjusted, and it seemed like I had a cleaner sound -- at least coming from my monitor. So, cool. Except when we go to play, there is this hiss in our sound all of the sudden, and the sound guy traces it back to the Fishman amp, and so that gets nixed and I plug in to a direct box -- and guess what was all I heard through the whole set? Yeah, the high Kazoo mocking me the whole time. So, what I want to know is, you guys who have the Fishman -- do you honestly like the sound? Or are you EQ'ing like mad every time you use it to get the sound you want? Is there something I can do to fix what I have? Maybe add an internal mic or something? Or do I need to bite the bullet and have this replaced with something else? TIA! 
|
|
#2
09-12-2017, 07:39 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Hi,
The Matrix, by itself, is an acquired taste. What your guitar tech failed to tell you is that Martin is selling their latest guitars with a Fishman Aura system. The Matrix is the undersaddle pickup itself. The system you have adds a preamp and controls inside the guitar. That's all well and good. But, the magic of Fishman systems is in the Aura imaging. I recommend you do some research on that topic. Aura is basically a system that applies processing or "modeling" to the raw pickup signal. The images are made from studio recordings of the guitars with high end microphones. By using the Fishman Aura pedal you will be giving yourself the equivalent of a dual source system - the pickup and the microphone "image." The Martin installed systems include the Aura electronics onboard so you don't need the pedal. The Anthem is a good system because it uses two direct sources - the pickup and the mic. It's debatable as to which approach is better. Martin now sells both. My preference is the Aura system because there is less stuff in the guitar and you have nearly unlimited control with their electronics. Before you give up on your investment, you might want to take your guitar to a shop that sells the Fishman Aura pedal and demo it through a high quality PA speaker like a QSC K10.2. Try a few of the built in images. They have an extensive library of images online also. You should be able to find more than one that fits the bill.
__________________
"Lift your head and smile at trouble. You'll find happiness someday."
|
|
#3
09-12-2017, 09:31 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
The Aura pedal should work well, but it's not cheap. Perhaps your tech will own some responsibility in their recommendation and be willing to replace the Fishman with something that suits you better. But, do your homework, every pickup has its own deficiencies. Adding a microphone may help but it would be even better if you can also add a good blender to eq and mix the signals properly. The Anthem may be a good solution as it is a kind of dual source system taking care of the blending for you (as they see fit at the factory). Good, natural sound is difficult to achieve, in part, because we all have different tastes, some people are perfectly happy with a Fishman pickup as is.
__________________
"We got both kinds of music, we got country and western" ~ from The Blues Brothers
|
|
#4
09-12-2017, 10:22 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
That said, I believe the sound you are describing may simply be inherent to the pickup technology in general, specifically, the Piezoelectric transducer. Some refer to the sound as a quack, others as a honk or buzz. Kazoo is just as appropriate. When driven hard(er), piezos tend to distort, or break up. That goes for both 2D and 3D piezos, though the latter are slightly more forgiving. Quote:
Quote:
New(ish) technology may offer you a better solution, though. As both floyd and dave suggested, the Aura imaging pedal is one approach to solving two issues, that of the kazoo-like sound as well as having your guitar sound more like your guitar (or someone else’s, actually). 5 or 6 years ago I was playing an Ovation Elite through an early Aura pedal, having selected a Guild F-50 (jumbo) image. That Ovation sounded fairly awful, all by itself. I looked up to see my wife staring at me with mouth agape - the look was precious. She, being very familiar with the Guild sound (30+ years worth of familiar), was not reconciling the visual of the Ovation sounding “just like a Guild”. It was a cool moment. But it also addresses your issue. Another option worth noting is the ToneDexter by Audio Sprockets. Assuming your Matrix is installed correctly and is not damaged in any way, you plug your pickup into the ToneDexter along with a microphone and create your own images or WaveMaps, as Audio Sprockets calls them. Yes, this requires the purchase of an additional piece of outboard gear and yes, you will need to carry it with you wherever you wish to perform. But your amplified guitar will sound closer to your guitar than it ever has, only louder.
|
|
#5
09-12-2017, 10:48 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
In my case, running it through the Boss VE-8 acoustic enhancer or whatever they call it does it make tolerable enough for gigs, though I may upgrade at some point.
|
|
#6
09-12-2017, 11:09 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
I posted a couple video's on a review thread I started about the Fishman Aura VT Enhance. Perhaps a soundclip here would be helpful as to what is possible if you try an Aura Spectrum pedal with your Fishman Matrix? I put some chorus on the rhythm in the middle and my timing was not my best ever, but you can get an idea of the amplified acoustic tone. And here is a song I sang and played (fighting a cold, so the singing was weak. Insert apologies here) I felt the tone of the Fishman Aura VT enhance however came across quite well. I hope these clips help.
__________________
Martin DC-18E (Ambertone) Martin HDC-28E Martin D-18 (2015) Collings D1 Traditional Emerald X20 Fender CS '63 Telecaster Custom Collings I-35LCV Collings I-30LC Collings 290 www.heartsoulaz.com
|
|
#7
09-12-2017, 11:10 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
After re-reading the thread, here are some other things to try:
Consider the saddle composition. If it is bone, is it structurally consistent? Sometimes swapping out a saddle makes all the difference. And then there is the impedance issue. The MESA Boogie has a 1M Ohm input. By contrast, the Fishman Loudbox and Aura Spectrum have a 5M Ohm input. The LR Baggs Venue has a 10M Ohm input. In my understanding, Piezos benefit from having a higher impedance input, the lack of which can be especially audible in the treble registers.
|
|
#8
09-12-2017, 11:26 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
I have the Fishman Natural 1 ust in all of my guitars. It is relatively inexpensive and I like it as a fairly neutral ust. I also dual source the ust with an internal mic (miniflex 2 mic model 4). I allow the ust to handle a larger proportion of the low/low mid and the mic to handle the higher frequencies to cut down on the dreaded piezo "quack." I would listen to those who have given the advice to check the install on the piezo, the matrix is a pretty solid system.
|
|
#9
09-12-2017, 12:28 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
|
|
#10
09-12-2017, 06:45 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
I agree with other posts here, it sounds like your Matrix is not fitted properly in the saddle. This is a problem that happens quite frequently. If you can get that fixed then see if you can get a second hand Spectrum DI. It will really help with the tone.
|
|
#11
09-15-2017, 02:13 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
This is a lot of good advice. Thanks!
Here's my next question... if my Guitar Tech didn't install it correctly (if it turns out to be a saddle not contacting correctly) Do I want to go back to the same guy again? Or do I cross him off of my list and move on to the next possible tech. I haven't been in a lot of Guitar stores, but I have yet to see one that has an acoustic guitar pedal setup. Guitar Center has their humidified controlled room, and they are cool with you going in and playing. But, that's only: "Play any guitar you want and plug it into one of these five amps. Enjoy." I never have seen somewhere that I could say: "Can I try an Aura pedal?" But, like I said, it's not like I've been in a hundred shops. How do you guys find these places? So, I have this BOSS VE8 -- isn't that supposed to help me shape my sound? Is that just a lost cause, I should sell it for what I can get, because the Aura Pedal is really what I wanted? (I know that sounds like I'm frustrated, but really, I'm just trying to find the way forward from here...) Is the Fishman Aura Pedal essentially the same as me getting the Fishman Aura in my guitar? If I already have the UTS part, can I just add what is left of the Aura?
|
|
#12
09-15-2017, 02:25 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
|
|
#13
09-15-2017, 03:05 PM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
Quote:
A few years ago, I walked into a Guitar Center intent on purchasing a particular pedal. The knowledgable guitar player behind the counter insisted I compare that pedal with another brand he had in stock. I bought the other pedal as a result, and was extremely happy that he intervened. Quote:
Using EQ to shape the tone of the sound of your guitar/pickup is one thing. The Aura adds real guitar "audio images" to the mix, where several brands/models of guitars are recorded (with microphones, in studios) and made to be selectable in a foot pedal (or an onboard preamp mounted in your guitar). You (your guitar's pickup) supplies the "signal" that drives that saved audio image of someone else's guitar. You make the music, they make the sound (if that makes any sense). That is how my Ovation sounded like a Guild (or a Martin, or whatever, etc.). Assuming your pickup is installed correctly, or re-installed correctly...If you carried your guitar into a store that sold an Aura foot pedal, asked them to demo the pedal, plugged your guitar in, selected an image (any image) and strummed your guitar...I think you would be amazed by what you heard (and end up making a purchase). -- isn't that supposed to help me shape my sound? Is that just a lost cause, I should sell it for what I can get, because the Aura Pedal is really what I wanted? (I know that sounds like I'm frustrated, but really, I'm just trying to find the way forward from here...) Is the Fishman Aura Pedal essentially the same as me getting the Fishman Aura in my guitar? If I already have the UTS part, can I just add what is left of the Aura?[/QUOTE]
|
|
#14
09-15-2017, 09:27 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
I found an Aura Pedal at GC online that is used slightly and $150 off of retail. I ordered it because, say what you want about GC, their return policy is top notch. But seriously, if this gets my GUILD sounding like a GUILD, Ima Keepin it for sure! I've had this GUILD a very long time. Just want to take it to the next level now while keeping the sound the same. Looking forward to trying the Aura!
|
|
#15
09-16-2017, 09:14 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Wow, sounds like you found a deal! Fishman has an application you can download for Mac or Windows:
Fishman Aura Software With your pedal connected to your computer (not your guitar - lol), open the application and have fun trying out different guitar images. I think you can load up to 16 different images onto your pedal (you overwrite previously stored images, but can always re-download them). Here is what the current Guild 6-string selections look like:  Hint: The G-212 was a dread 12-string, but it was Mahogany like your D-40, so that would be a good choice to try to get close to the sound of your guitar. But this is a kid-in-the-candy-store moment and you have an Aura pedal, right, so why not try one or more of the DV-52 Rosewood dread images? And after that... 
Last edited by Christopher Cozad; 09-16-2017 at 09:20 AM.
|
