The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Archtops

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 08-09-2016, 07:24 AM
DaveLeeNC DaveLeeNC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Pinehurst, NC United States
Posts: 11
Default Archtop Sound Trade-offs/Options

I am returning to playing after multiple decades of not playing at all. I play fingerstyle (classical to be more specific) at kind of an intermediate level. I play strictly to entertain myself and have two guitars - a Gibson ES-175D (that I play through a modeler) and a Jesus Marzal classical when the acoustic bug bites. The 175D (even if I replaced the flatwound strings) really is not an acoustic instrument.

I notice that the transition from the Gibson to the classical is not easy. String spacing is hugely different, the reaction of nylon strings vs. steel to fingertips and/or nails is different, and so on. So I am considering my options here and the 175D (or equivalent/better) stays in the picture.

The obvious option is sell the classical and replace it with a flattop. But flattops to me have always sounded 'metallic' - something that the classical obviously does not.

Based on what I have heard on Youtube videos/etc. archtop acoustics have less of that metallic sound, but quite honestly I have never touched one or heard one live. An interesting option would be to combine the two guitars and trade up to a carved top archtop with a floating pickup. I know that it would not sound like a classical but that is really not a requirement here. And maybe I am fooling myself in my 'estimate' of sound from an archtop (carved top) sound and avoiding that 'metallic sound' that I sense from flattops.

So I am just trolling for comments/perspective on this. I would probably have to drive a couple hours to actually find an archtop to try out. So I am going to do as much online investigation as I can before doing that.

Thanks

dave

ps. Do I get kicked out of here for even suggesting that the right answer for me is fewer guitars :-)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-09-2016, 12:56 PM
MC5C MC5C is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Tatamagouche Nova Scotia
Posts: 1,136
Default

You really should try to find a luthier made carved top acoustic archtop to try so you can find out what they sound like. Mine (that I made) has a very sweet, transparent shimmery tone, with a lot of volume, balance, headroom. I can't play fingerstyle powerfully, as a trained classical player can, but it responds well. You can get any neck size, radius, scale length you want with a purpose made instrument, and playing a good one will let you know if that is a path you want to follow.

I am in the beginning stages of a build that will interest you - a fully carved archtop built very lightly, fan braced, and with a traditional classical neck and nylon strings. Designed expressly for fingerstyle jazz for a classical player.

Brian
__________________
Brian Evans
Around 15 archtops, electrics, resonators, a lap steel, a uke, a mandolin, some I made, some I bought, some kinda showed up and wouldn't leave. Tatamagouche Nova Scotia.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-09-2016, 06:13 PM
Archtop Guy Archtop Guy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: The Golden State
Posts: 679
Default

I like and respect the plan for fewer guitars, and an acoustic archtop is worth investigating.

People have told me over the years that my archtop sounds have some similarity with classical guitars. I think what they are hearing is that they both have quite a flat response of the primary frequency of the note from the lowest to the highest range of the fingerboard. Some people just say "strong mids." What I hear on good flattops is the overtones slowly increase in volume as fundamental note rises, and that may be what you hear as metallic.

I love my hand made and purpose made archtops, but I love the sound of an old L-5 too. I'd recommend seeking out a good Eastman dealer, or just a place with a range of archtops. The Eastmans have 1 3/4" wide fingerboards. There are some nice acoustic archtops demos on YouTube which at least is a place to start, weak sound quality and all.
__________________
Find your voice and tell a story!

Circle 'Round the Sun
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-09-2016, 09:07 PM
AxeDude AxeDude is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Black Hills of SD
Posts: 143
Default

I wonder about the new Epiphone Masterbuilt Century De Luxe.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-09-2016, 10:21 PM
Spook Spook is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 882
Default

Solid woods are the way to go for a non-electric archtop. The Epiphone's appear to be laminate back and sides.

Eastman is a good place to start. They tend to be a bit on the bright side but at least they have a neck width you'll like and are available in most places to actually get your hands on.

If you can find one an oval hole Eastman might suit you nicely. There is also the Yunzhi/Mr. Wu path if you want to try out different configurations without spending too much.
__________________
Spook
Southern Oregon
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-10-2016, 05:01 AM
Cincy2 Cincy2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Tampa Florida
Posts: 487
Default Two guitars are better than one

I've just been through the same dilemma you are experiencing. My classical is for sale and I now have both an arch top and a flat top steel string guitar. Here are some thoughts.

I found that the acoustic arch tops I played were all as bright as flat top steel string instruments. Even electrified arch tops with floating pickups still had a sound too bright for my tastes. Solution: Comins arch top with a pickup embedded in the soundboard feeding a tube amplifier. Warm, wonderful creamy tone with a fast neck and low action. Just a joy to play. Chord melodies give me the classic style "lap orchestra" experience I still crave.

Something was still missing. I loved Celtic music, old time Delta blues and even "roots" music from Appalachia. Altered tunings like DADGAD opened up a whole new world of music. Had to have a flat top also. I dialed up a Tommy Emmanuel channel on Pandora and listened to that style of music for a few months. I began to appreciate that "metallic" sound nylon string players abhor. Some wood combinations were worse than others. I've found I can live with some some and not with others. My first flat top was spruce / mahogany. Bad mistake. Sent it back even though it was beautifully made (Huss and Dalton). Next up, a Taylor with Sitka / Indian Rosewood. Familiar woods to me as a classical guitarist but still a little too bright. Needed very heavy gage strings to sing and my fingers can't do that any more. Later this week, my new Lowden F50 arrives. Redwood / African Blackwood. My last classical guitar had this combination and I loved it. Spruce like clarity with cedar like warmth. I hope this is "the one". So does my wife

So my advice to you would be if you can't get what you want in one guitar, try two: electrified arch top for warmth and chord melody playing. Acoustic flat top with a selection of woods that you find agreeable. The sound of unamplified steel grows on you. The choice of luthier and woods can make it bettor or worse.

Good luck! The search is half the fun.

Cincy
__________________
2018 Buscarino Italia
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-10-2016, 05:38 AM
DaveLeeNC DaveLeeNC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Pinehurst, NC United States
Posts: 11
Default

Thanks to all for the very helpful comments. When all is said and done I am going to have to listen to a bunch of instruments somewhere. In the meantime this kind of dialogue is very useful to me.

dave
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-10-2016, 05:59 AM
Pnewsom Pnewsom is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 861
Default

I play an old 1977 Ibanez 2471NT, L5 knock off. It has a carved spruce top, laminated maple back and sides, with a Johnny Smith floating pickup. It sounds great acoustic or electric. I play it more than any other guitar I own, including a couple nice Collings flattops. I can't imagine any style of music that it's not good for.

A carved top with a floating pick up is likely your best bet.

Check out this D'Angelico. Expensive but wow!!!

https://youtu.be/14EJ2vFjW7A

And another D'Angelico with Joe Pass

https://youtu.be/p_kUJa1PueM

Last edited by Pnewsom; 08-10-2016 at 06:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-10-2016, 07:50 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 8,796
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC View Post
I am returning to playing after multiple decades of not playing at all. I play fingerstyle (classical to be more specific) at kind of an intermediate level. I play strictly to entertain myself and have two guitars - a Gibson ES-175D (that I play through a modeler) and a Jesus Marzal classical when the acoustic bug bites. The 175D (even if I replaced the flatwound strings) really is not an acoustic instrument.

I notice that the transition from the Gibson to the classical is not easy. String spacing is hugely different, the reaction of nylon strings vs. steel to fingertips and/or nails is different, and so on. So I am considering my options here and the 175D (or equivalent/better) stays in the picture.

The obvious option is sell the classical and replace it with a flattop. But flattops to me have always sounded 'metallic' - something that the classical obviously does not.

Based on what I have heard on Youtube videos/etc. archtop acoustics have less of that metallic sound, but quite honestly I have never touched one or heard one live. An interesting option would be to combine the two guitars and trade up to a carved top archtop with a floating pickup. I know that it would not sound like a classical but that is really not a requirement here. And maybe I am fooling myself in my 'estimate' of sound from an archtop (carved top) sound and avoiding that 'metallic sound' that I sense from flattops.

So I am just trolling for comments/perspective on this. I would probably have to drive a couple hours to actually find an archtop to try out. So I am going to do as much online investigation as I can before doing that.

Thanks

dave

ps. Do I get kicked out of here for even suggesting that the right answer for me is fewer guitars :-)
Hi Dave,
I'm going to suggest that based on your preferances and interests that you might want to check into a "crossover guitar" that uses nylon strings but has a much narrower radius fret board than what you will find on a classical. I've posted a bit of information on crossover guitar as well as some great YouTube demos here:

http://web.archive.org/web/201603282...Crossover.html

Acoustic Guitar Magazine review of a typical crossover:

https://youtu.be/El3bnbp2WB8
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-10-2016, 09:34 AM
DaveLeeNC DaveLeeNC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Pinehurst, NC United States
Posts: 11
Default

Rudy, I have only had a chance for a glance at what you have provided here. But even just from that I see an interesting option. My classical needs work regardless (action is WAY too high). I don't have a particular objection to mixing flat and radius fretboards, but the string spacing WRT the left hand is most troublesome to me. I can imagine just changing that at the nut and (after additional setup things) this being enough for me to simply stay with my existing guitars. This would be kind of a 'small version' of what you did to your Hauser.

Thanks for the input.

dave
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-10-2016, 01:22 PM
jomaynor jomaynor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Georgia
Posts: 1,193
Default

A gypsy style guitar may be to your liking, as well. Much louder than a classical, with a slightly arched top, they use a unique composition string, and they aren't as "metallic" sounding as a typical flat top acoustic - especially, as a rule, the models with the larger D shaped soundhole.

Also, a traditional flat top strung with silk and steel strings will have a much mellower tone than it would if using the more typical harmonically rich bronze strings.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-10-2016, 03:11 PM
DaveLeeNC DaveLeeNC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Pinehurst, NC United States
Posts: 11
Default

I have to admit that I have overlooked the option of silk/steel strings on a flattop. Thanks for the reminder.

dave
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-10-2016, 03:37 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 8,796
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveLeeNC View Post
Rudy, I have only had a chance for a glance at what you have provided here. But even just from that I see an interesting option. My classical needs work regardless (action is WAY too high). I don't have a particular objection to mixing flat and radius fretboards, but the string spacing WRT the left hand is most troublesome to me. I can imagine just changing that at the nut and (after additional setup things) this being enough for me to simply stay with my existing guitars. This would be kind of a 'small version' of what you did to your Hauser.

Thanks for the input.

dave
Glad to alert you to the option.

I would say that just narrowing the spacing at the nut on your classical won't be nearly as effective as going with the narrower neck width. Not sure what your classical is, but going with something 1/8" narrower will make a huge difference in the ease of playing. If your interest is piqued to the point of wanting to learn more be sure to look up the Acoustic Guitar back issue that has the reviews of 5 crossovers. I believe our own Doug Young might be one of the reviewers.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-10-2016, 07:36 PM
Richard Mott Richard Mott is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 398
Default

Pnewsom--I think that D'Angelico that Joe Pass is playing in the link you posted is actually an early or mid-period D'Aquisto.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-10-2016, 07:48 PM
iim7V7IM7's Avatar
iim7V7IM7 iim7V7IM7 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: An Exit Off the Turnpike in New Jersey
Posts: 5,152
Default

Yes, that's one of Jimmy's guitars from about 5 years post John still retaining some traditional aesthetics but beginning to see where he was headed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Mott View Post
Pnewsom--I think that D'Angelico that Joe Pass is playing in the link you posted is actually an early or mid-period D'Aquisto.
__________________
A bunch of nice archtops, flattops, a gypsy & nylon strings…
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Archtops

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=