High neck angle w/ high action?

[fortlee]

I have a Taylor 522 that I haven't played in a while. Just picked it up today and the action was a little high. I checked the neck relief and it was flat so I loosened the truss rod a touch until it got to 0.01". Then I measured the action and it is 7/64" low E and 6/64" high e.

I thought I would just have to get the neck angle raised a touch, but I measured it and it's actually .075" above the bridge. What's the best way to lower the action in this scenario? My saddle height is 0.15".

[B. Howard]

How is the guitar in regards to moisture content? If the guitar is swelled up from excess moisture the top will raise and so will the action. Also it should be checked for the possibility of a broken brace. The action should be much lower if the numbers you posted are correct.

[LouieAtienza]

Have you checked the wings of the bridge that they are not lifted off the top? Taylor apparently doesn't glue that area, so if it is so it is likely you may have over humidified the guitar. The simple solution would be to order another saddlee from Taylor, and make it a little shorter. Then when the to returns to normal you can replace the original saddle.

This is of course if the guitar is structurally sound as Brian suggested to check. Also if you have ES2 the pickup may fall out when you remove the saddle. Then you'll need a mini torque wrench to set the piezo...

How tall is the saddle above the bridge (middle of saddle between the D and G strings)?

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by fortlee

I have a Taylor 522 that I haven't played in a while. Just picked it up today and the action was a little high. I checked the neck relief and it was flat so I loosened the truss rod a touch until it got to 0.10". Then I measured the action and it is 7/64" low E and 6/64" high e.

I thought I would just have to get the neck angle raised a touch, but I measured it and it's actually .075" above the bridge. What's the best way to lower the action in this scenario? My saddle height is 0.15".

First off, why would you loosen the rod when the action was high and the relief was low? If it doesn't buzz, you don't need more relief, less is almost always better. Those action height numbers seem reasonable, certainly not high. And I'm assuming you meant the relief is 0.01", otherwise your action height numbers don't make any sense.

Did you loosen the strings to check the neck angle? That method for checking the neck angle is useful when building, but once you can put strings on a guitar the important factors in determining proper neck angle are:

Height of the strings above the soundboard (should be 7/16" to 5/8")
Action height (you know what you like)
Amount of saddle above the bridge (should be 1/8", 1/16"minimum)

If the action is high and there's not enough saddle above the bridge to lower it, then the neck needs to be reset. Based on your saddle height, you could lower the saddle.

There may be other alternatives to a neck reset, such as shaving the bridge. If the bridge was too thick originally, that may be an option. You do need to maintain that minimum height of strings above the soundboard, so shaving the bridge is only an option if it was thick to begin with.

[dhalbert]

As mentioned, humidity is the first thing I would check, and .010" is more like it for the relief.

This is a modern Taylor, so a neck reset is really easy (unbolt the neck and change the shims).

[fortlee]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

How tall is the saddle above the bridge (middle of saddle between the D and G strings)?

The saddle height above the bridge between D and G strings is 0.15"

[fortlee]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

First off, why would you loosen the rod when the action was high and the relief was low? If it doesn't buzz, you don't need more relief, less is almost always better. Those action height numbers seem reasonable, certainly not high. And I'm assuming you meant the relief is 0.01", otherwise your action height numbers don't make any sense.

Did you loosen the strings to check the neck angle? That method for checking the neck angle is useful when building, but once you can put strings on a guitar the important factors in determining proper neck angle are:

Height of the strings above the soundboard (should be 7/16" to 5/8")
Action height (you know what you like)
Amount of saddle above the bridge (should be 1/8", 1/16"minimum)

If the action is high and there's not enough saddle above the bridge to lower it, then the neck needs to be reset. Based on your saddle height, you could lower the saddle.

There may be other alternatives to a neck reset, such as shaving the bridge. If the bridge was too thick originally, that may be an option. You do need to maintain that minimum height of strings above the soundboard, so shaving the bridge is only an option if it was thick to begin with.

Yea, the relief is 0.010" I had a typo before. You know, I didn't really think about why I added more relief. I guess I was just trying to set things back up to "factory specs." I will tighten it back up to no relief and see if that helps.

The height from bottom of the low E to the soundboard is .45".

I guess I'm just wondering if the best way to lower the action here is to adjust the neck angle or shave down the saddle.

[John Arnold]

I will tighten it back up to no relief and see if that helps.

It will.
Reducing the relief lowers the action.
I don't know what Taylor recommends, but I would start by setting the relief at 0.005". Then adjust the saddle for the desired action.

The height from bottom of the low E to the soundboard is .45".
My saddle height is 0.15".

The string height over the top is a little less than ideal (0.5"), but it still could be lowered about 1/32".
OTOH, considering the Taylor bridge design, I would not want to lower the saddle very much. That is because the bridge pins (particularly on the middle strings) are further from the saddle than other bridge types, and for a given saddle height the string break angle across the saddle is less.

On a Martin, the 'formula' is 0.150" saddle height and 0.350" bridge thickness.

[Dan Bombliss]

Humidity isn't a factor when your numbers are in front of you. Humidity would explain how or why the numbers are what they are, but when it's out in front of you throw humidity out as you've already measured and accounted for the result of it.

Strung up the straight edge should kiss the front edge, or be just slightly higher than the front of the bridge. Unstrung, the neck angle should be 1/16", or more, above the bridge. That is because for the geometry to work out under string tension, and for the action to be proper the angle needs to be flush to the bridge. Because the top deflects under string tension, the angle needs to be higher with out strings, and it pulls the top up. Make sure the neck angle you gave us wasn't measured with out string tension. If you had a flush neck angle with out string tension, you can bet your angle is too low (not the case, so don't worry). It is not physically possible to have high action, high neck angle, and a low saddle. So that means the meat can be taken off of the saddle, or the measurements aren't correct.

If the Taylor is '01 or newer it will have the bolt on neck which makes easy work of a neck reset. Taylors don't have radiused bridges, so generally speaking on the high E side, when set up properly, with a proper neck set, the saddle gets pretty low over there. If I'm not mistaken, the 522's are all a pretty recent thing. I'm sure you have a new enough guitar that has the NT joint and shims. In which case don't tinker with anything. There are Taylor guys out there that won't even sand a saddle, they simply repitch the neck to accommodate season change (Technically, that's exactly what's happening from season to season, your neck angle is slightly moving due to top rising and sinking).

Also, generally speaking (with nicer instruments), the company knew what they were doing when they built to the spec they did (bridge height for example). A bridge shave is only acceptable when you decide it's cost prohibitive to do a neck reset. Shaving the bridge down to accommodate an improper angle, lowers your saddle and changes the break angle and downward force that drives the top. It's is guaranteed that too much shaving will rob sound when the saddle gets too low. Plus, if and when you decide you need a real neck reset, then all of a sudden you can count on dumping another $250 in a new hand carved bridge.

To rule all of this out, you need to:

Set your relief
Then fret the first fret and check your action at the 12th. If you're action is, for example, .120" and you want .090" at your low E, you take .120-.09 and you get .03". The 12th fret is the middle of the scale and geometry says that in order to change that measurement from .120 to .090" you need to double the difference at the saddle. .120 - .090 = .030 (x2 at saddle)= .060"

At this point, neck angle is still irrelevant, this is what tells you if neck angle is correct or not. (What I mean by irrelevant is that you don't need to look or worry about it, this tells you if it's wrong). If you're saddle is sticking up well more than .060", you have the room to remove .060" off of the bottom of the saddle. If you're saddle was only sticking up .020" atop the bridge, that means you have a low neck angle. If you're saddle was a mile high and .060" didn't even dent it, you're angle could be too high. All of those things are assuming that the bridge is still factory height. (This is how you can tell if you're neck angle is high or low, with out a straight edge. It's a process of ruling out factors).

Usually telling us your relief, action height, and neck angle will give us all of the info we need to come to a conclusion, but if you're numbers aren't correct, neither is our response.

-Dan

[John Arnold]

Humidity isn't a factor when your numbers are in front of you. Humidity would explain how or why the numbers are what they are, but when it's out in front of you throw humidity out as you've already measured and accounted for the result of it.

I guess I know what you mean, but humidity can change action, so it is a factor.
The question is whether the guitar is equalized with the surroundings.

If the Taylor is '01 or newer it will have the bolt on neck

Taylors have had a bolt-on neck much longer than that. In fact, I have never seen one that didn't, and I am sure some of those have been from the 1980's.

[Dan Bombliss]

[/QUOTE]Taylors have had a bolt-on neck much longer than that. In fact, I have never seen one that didn't, and I am sure some of those have been from the 1980's.[/QUOTE]

That is not true. Taylor started prototyping the NT joint I believe in '99. It didn't become a standard addition until '01, even so the entry levels (200 series and down) had a different bolt on configuration using different shims. If I remember correctly it was a single shim under the fingerboard extension (I could be wrong, the shims are not available anymore so it doesn't matter).

The NT neck that we know now was available on all 300 and up series guitars after '01, and I think 1-200 series '04 and up. Everything prior to '01 is glued on. Whether that means Dovetail (which some are) or if that means bolt on (which some are), regardless both have glued on fingerboard extensions, which means $$$ to have fixed.

I apologize if anything on here sounds combative or contradiction. A lot of times, we all seem to be on the same page but take different ways to get there. Text has a fun way of twisting what we mean, by the lack of emotion.

-Dan

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by fortlee

The saddle height above the bridge between D and G strings is 0.15"

Okay, so you have about 3.75mm of saddle protrusion to work with.

You should be able to easily take up to 1.75mm from the saddle height without causing problems. I usually say it is best to keep saddle protrusion between 2 and 4mm. There are exceptions, however, so this isn't a hard and fast rule. Again though, on your Taylor, a saddle down to 2mm shouldn't cause issues.

Removing 1.75mm of saddle height will reduce the 12th fret action by half that amount: about 0.85mm (or about 34 thousands of an inch - estimated).

[dhalbert]

Originally Posted by Dan Bombliss

That is not true. Taylor started prototyping the NT joint I believe in '99.

Before the NT neck, Taylor used a more conventional bolted-on neck with a glued-on fretboard extension (like older Seagulls, etc.) Here are some web pages describing neck resets on older non-NT Taylors without ungluing the fretboard:
http://fingerlakesguitarrepair.com/t...lt-neck-reset/
http://liutaiomottola.com/constructi...mozTocId879853

(I tried this technique unsuccessfully on a Seagull, and ended up removing the neck completely, which turned out to be quite easy.)

[John Arnold]

Before the NT neck, Taylor used a more conventional bolted-on neck with a glued-on fretboard extension

That was my point. I consider any neck that is held on with bolts as a bolt-on.....glued fingerboard extension or not. Taylors so equipped have a flat heel butted to the body, which is one of the easiest to reset.

Whether that means dovetail (which some are) or if that means bolt on (which some are), regardless both have glued on fingerboard extensions, which means $$$ to have fixed.

We are talking about a Taylor here, so dovetail is off the table.
A glued extension may add some to the repair bill (5 minutes to remove the neck), but it still is a long way from the work involved in doing a dovetail reset. There is no steaming, and no fitting or shimming of the dovetail.