After just two weeks, my low string height is TOO TALL again?!

[BothHands]

What happened?
I hope you guys can tell me...


You forum members were a tremendous help in making my first saddle from a blank in THIS THREAD. I took it all very seriously and wore myself out making sure I didn't mess things up. In the end I achieved a good playable action (Lo-E .090" at Fret 12 and Hi-e .077" at Fret 12). The change really improved the guitar's playability and sound, and I thought maybe I'd try to take the action a bit lower later on.

EARLY, INTENSE WINTER WEATHER
I live near the center of the US, and we've been having crazy cold weather for about a week. One day the temperature was in the low 60's and by nightfall it had dropped to the 20s. Our high temps have ranged only from 7 degrees F to the mid 20s since then. Yesterday I played out. The guitar was in the car for a couple of hours, but the interior temperature was comfortable. The guitar remained cased with a Damp-it humidifier in the sound hole. And for the record, during this crazy cold weather I've been careful to keep the guitar cased and humidified using the Damp-it.

The guitar felt stiff and difficult to play last night, and it sounded thuddy too, much as it had before I lowered the action. So I checked string height and neck relief today:

Lo-E string height at Fret 12: .120"
Should be about .090"...?

Neck relief: Lo-E .010" at Fret 6 (with capo on Fret 1 and fretted at Fret 13)
Was about .009" two weeks ago, so there's been a very minor increase in forward bow.

24" straight edge atop the frets now aligns about 1/8" below the front corner of the ebony bridge (see image 3 below)
Two weeks ago, that straight edge aligned just slightly below the front corner of the bridge. Maybe 1/16" at most...

I don't see any noticeable rise in the guitar's top/soundboard near the bridge. (see image 2 below)
The ruler is butted up against the back edge of the bridge on the left,
and I'm not holding it perfectly level but you get the idea...
Isn't it true that Winter dryness can cause the top to arch and thereby raise the bridge relative to the fretboard?

I hope you guys can tell me what's happening here, and how to counteract it.

As you can see in photo 1 below, I have very little saddle left above the bridge slot. It's about .090" tall at its highest point between the D and G strings - the result of lowering the saddle height a couple of weeks ago.


JUST PUH-LEEZE DON'T ANYBODY USE "THE 'N' WORD" CARELESSLY...

The 'N' Word is "NECK RESET"... This guitar is very important to me, but there's no way it's getting a neck reset. I can't afford it and the guitar is a bit rough. And while I'm not thrilled with its sound, I think it could be quite good IF I ever get the action truly sorted out (GRRRR! ) This is my main/primary guitar now (sad but true...).

IF it turns out that a neck reset is the one-and-only cure, I'll have to take myself out back and put one through my brain pan. Naw, but seriously, a neck reset would be an absolute crusher under present circumstances and wouldn't happen for a looong time, if ever - so please consider every possibility.

Thanks, as always.

PS. When purchased, this guitar had a crack in its top that ran from the treble corner of the fretboard to the sound hole edge. About 5/8" long, but maybe it ran further, along the treble side of the fretboard toward the neck joint, too... I had it professionally repaired by a local Tech of excellent reputation. He didn't give any details, but says he secured the crack (glued it?) and glued a small, thin surface cleat to the top's underside, spanning the the crack just inside the sound hole rim.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by BothHands

Isn't it true that Winter dryness can cause the top to arch and thereby raise the bridge relative to the fretboard?

The exact opposite. Wood shrinks as it dries; the shortest distance between two fixed points (e.g. the sides) is a straight line. An arched top will flatten as it shrinks.

The geometry your guitar has isn't great. The strings are higher than you'd like and the saddle projection is lower than you'd like. As was previously discussed, the primary options are to shave the bridge to allow for maintaining/increasing the saddle projection, ramping the pin holes or neck reset. Another potential option is a new fingerboard that is wedge-shaped to correct the effective neck angle, an option you already know is not inexpensive. You might be able to accomplish a few thousandths with creative use of fret height.

In some cases, a loose brace can allow the top to arch, thereby increasing string action. Unless the top is excessively arched or deformed, not likely the cause. But, you can check the interior of the top for loose braces.

[John Arnold]

The simple answer is that you over-humidified it. The higher action from more top belly and the thuddy sound are dead giveaways. I have had a similar change in weather here in East TN, and the inside RH has only dropped a few points....not enough to drag out my room humidifier yet.

[dhalbert]

I agree with John's diagnosis. Keep a humidity gauge (e.g. Caliber digital) in the guitar case when you have a humidifier in there. Then you'll know whether you're over- or under-humidifying.

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

The exact opposite. Wood shrinks as it dries; the shortest distance between two fixed points (e.g. the sides) is a straight line. An arched top will flatten as it shrinks.

So my thinking on this matter has been entirely BACKWARDS. Are you guys beginning to see a pattern here...?

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

The geometry of your guitar has isn't great. The strings are higher than you'd like and the saddle projection is lower than you'd like.

I agree, and have been scratching my head over this particular guitar and its geometry. As is often the case, Charles, your answers seem to anticipate my next question(s). I appreciate it. I intend to make an illustrated thread asking a few "burning questions" about this guitar's geometry and geometry in general. I hope to find time later this week.

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

The primary options are to shave the bridge to allow for maintaining/increasing the saddle projection,

That's tempting, but I think shaving down the bridge height would not be a good option long-term. Once done, NO CAN UNDO short of replacing the bridge entirely (and it's a unique/unusual bridge). Not gonna find one at Stew-Mac.

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

...ramping the pin holes

Kinda like the third image in THIS POST? If so, I see the advantage in terms of string break angle, but it won't do anything for the lowness of the saddle relative to the bridge and saddle slot (right?). It seems I would also be forced to remove ebony material in front of the saddle (on the sound hole side of the saddle)...and that amounts to shaving the bridge.

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

...or neck reset.

UGH! There's that disgusting 'N' Word! I truly like this guitar, though I would like a Collings D2H a a lot better. And my ultimate desire is a pair of adjustable-neck guitars ala Trevor Gore, et al. Because I do like this guitar, someday a neck reset may be possible, and if that comes about, I think I'll kick myself then for shaving down the height of the bridge. That's why I'll probably keep the bridge intact (though I will cut string ramps per image 1 in that linked post).

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Another potential option is a new fingerboard that is wedge-shaped [...] an option you already know is not inexpensive. You might be able to accomplish a few thousandths with creative use of fret height.

Yeah, those sound like a lot of work and money for limited results. I'll bet that wedge-shaped fretboard would end up costing about what a neck reset costs...or more.

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

In some cases, a loose brace can allow the top to arch, thereby increasing string action. Unless the top is excessively arched or deformed, not likely the cause. But, you can check the interior of the top for loose braces.

Thanks for that. I don't see any unusual arch/deformation, but I'll pull the strings and "feel around inside".

Hey, do you guys think a Guitar has a G Spot...?

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[BothHands]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

The simple answer is that you over-humidified it. The higher action from more top belly and the thuddy sound are dead giveaways. I have had a similar change in weather here in East TN, and the inside RH has only dropped a few points....not enough to drag out my room humidifier yet.

Simple answers? I don't understand the concept. !!!

Thanks a LOT, John. I can't tell you how much I appreciate that particular answer, because I can correct that problem for free, AND...it appears I don't really have to be as concerned about humidity as I have been.


QUESTIONS

I bought this guitar used. It was built in 2005 and was probably not well cared for. It has a few dings, had a crack from the sound hole to the treble corner of the fretboard (and perhaps along the treble edge of the fretboard) and has a nice patina that seems to suggest a lot of time in the sunlight (not in a case). The crack has been professionally repaired.

I think that crack might be the result of having dropped the guitar while playing, and having it land on the G-string tuner (that tuner button was cracked, as well). I think that kind of force delivered in that particular direction might well account for such a crack, and there appear to be no humidity-related cracks or other indications of "drying out".

Q1. JOHN, and others, do you think my "forensic interpretation" of the crack sounds right? More importantly, could that crack be responsible for larger-than-typical changes in string height as a result of humidity changes?

Q2. Can guitars become acclimated to some adverse HUMIDITY environment, and then not respond normally to "normal" humidification later on. Specifically, if the former owner never took precautions, and the guitar existed in a too-dry environment, might the guitar now become over-humidified under what is considered a normal humidity level? Sort of a hyper-sensitivity to humidity...?

I ask because I'm experiencing this rise in string height while using the exact same Damp-it humidifier in this guitar that I've used in my trusty Gurian for 37 years, and that guitar has experienced no obvious changes in string height in all that time...

Q3. Can guitars become acclimated to an adverse TEMPERATURE environment, and then respond oddly to changes in temperature?

I ask because my guitars are kept in a room that, during the winter, averages 50 to 55 degrees F. I keep the whole house cool during winter--in the low 60s--so it's not like the guitar experiences a big change when moved room to room...

Thanks

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by dhalbert

I agree with John's diagnosis. Keep a humidity gauge (e.g. Caliber digital) in the guitar case when you have a humidifier in there. Then you'll know whether you're over- or under-humidify one.

Thanks, D. There's an analog hygrometer (with a spring, not electronic) built into the case that came with this guitar, but it always reports the same 80% reading.

I'll look around and see what other options are available.

[BothHands]

In response to Charles and John's comments suggesting over-humidification as the source of the problem, I have:

1. Removed the Damp-it humidifier from the sound hole

2. Slackened the strings

3. Removed the guitar from its case

4. Put the guitar on a stand

Is this the best way for me to counteract the apparent over-humidification?

Assuming temperature in the 55-60F range and average humidity levels, how long before I might see improvement?

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by BothHands

2. Slackened the strings

Slackening the strings is irrelevant.

Is this the best way for me to counteract the apparent over-humidification?

It should be adequate. And, how will you know when it has changed from over-humidified to getting too dry?

Assuming temperature in the 55-60F range and average humidity levels, how long before I might see improvement?

There is no "average humidity level" at work here. You should be measuring what you have, rather than guessing at some "average" value. You don't need anything fancy or expensive to give you a "close enough" value. Monitoring and maintaining relative humidity really isn't that complicated or difficult, despite the many internet discussions to the contrary.

How fast depends upon a number of factors, including the moisture content of the wood and the relative humidity of the surrounding environment. Temperature is largely irrelevant. Although relative humidity is dependent upon temperature, it is the relative humidity that matters.

You'll probably start to see a change in a day or two.

[BothHands]

Thanks, Charles.

I'm just not willing to devote so much attention to humidity levels. I love dogs and we always had a dog when I was a boy, but I don't have one now because if I did, my life would start to revolve around the dog. The same can happen with an acoustic guitar....

I just got off the phone after speaking with the excellent technician who repaired the crack in this guitar. His stated viewpoint regarding humidity is directly in line with my own inclination, and I would love to hear what you guys think about the following:

He talked about clients who keep their treasured Martins at some unrealistic prescribed humidity/temperature level. Then when they play at some festival on an outdoor stage, perhaps in full sunshine, their setups go all to hell. They come back to him and say, "What happened to my baby?"

So his professional viewpoint, and my natural inclination is to keep your guitar in a realistic environment - one that wards off any ill effects of drying out, but one that's close enough to real world circumstances that the guitar doesn't go into shock under less-than-optimal conditions.

As a layman, I think it's probably best to let each guitar live in "the real world" (within reason), and once acclimated there, have that "well adjusted instrument" set up under similar, natural "real world" conditions. The result is similar to when a living organism builds up an "immunity" to harmful things... A setup done under natural conditions should hold up well under most natural conditions, no?

[redir]

The weather here in Virgina has been pretty wild too. I expect to see a few repairs come into the shop by the end of the week

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by BothHands

As a layman, I think it's probably best to let each guitar live in "the real world" (within reason), and once acclimated there, have that "well adjusted instrument" set up under similar, natural "real world" conditions. The result is similar to when a living organism builds up an "immunity" to harmful things... A setup done under natural conditions should hold up well under most natural conditions, no?

If I've been reading this thread correctly, isn't that exactly what you just did?

Natural "real world' conditions of relative humidity range from 10% to 90%+, depending on where you live. Very few guitars will tolerate that much variation without needing some adjustment.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

Natural "real world' conditions of relative humidity range from 10% to 90%+, depending on where you live. Very few guitars will tolerate that much variation without needing some adjustment.

Or having the splits in their woods repaired.

One doesn't need to be a slave to humidity and temperature controls. But, depending upon where you live and the environmental conditions, no attention often results in damaged instruments.

It isn't that complicated and doesn't need to be. Wood changes size and geometry as its moisture content changes. There is nothing you can do to prevent it, other than stabilize, within reason, that environment.

As Rodger points out, you are already finding out, first hand, about the effects of humidity changes on wooden instruments.

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by redir

The weather here in Virgina has been pretty wild too. I expect to see a few repairs come into the shop by the end of the week

HA! One man's pain is another man's profit!

My dad was an attorney. He used to chuckle, "God bless the man who sues my client." LOL

Rock on, redir.

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

If I've been reading this thread correctly, isn't that exactly what you just did?

Natural "real world' conditions of relative humidity range from 10% to 90%+, depending on where you live. Very few guitars will tolerate that much variation without needing some adjustment.

That makes sense, Rodger. But I can't devote my life to "the care and feeding" of some inanimate object. My interest is in making music, not the conservation of wooden instruments.

I realize these acoustic guitars require some level of dedication, but the one I've had since 1977 as has been amazingly stable compared to this, and it hasn't received any truly special treatment. Nor is it made of kryptonite or some special alloy.

I dunno. Maybe I've just been extremely lucky...

For me, a guitar is a tool, not an obsession, and I just need it to function properly in the real world. And while we're at it, think of the famous historical stringed instruments that remain in good condition hundreds of years after they were built. I realize the string tension on a violin is not the same as on a steel-string guitar, but if improper humidity levels were really so deadly, I can't see how those instruments could have survived pre air conditioning and pre central heating.