Chasing harmonies

[Northward]

Hi all!

When writing and composing songs I often find myself facing the same shortcomings. After the initial inspirational theme or chords, I usually work out a verse and chorus after a while. But then, I find the biggest challenge is development of a bridge. Almost every time.. Bridges are hard, when you want that effect of lifting the refrain. All I know is that minor is often used for this effect.

Also, I wish harmonies came to me natural (I'm not that musical). Great pop songs often have a lift on the chorus. And the pros knows all the different ways and tricks to achieve this. Backing singing harmonies works great, but can someone point out to me what chords go well together..

As you understand I am by no means trained. I've just been making songs for years as a hobby. Most of them are poor, but some are alright and I'd like to work on them with more 'tools in the toolbox', so to speak. With recording in mind.

Would be nice to know more about harmonies and ways to make a chorus 'pop'. Also, bridges.. why do I find them never 'showing up easy', in the process of making a song.

Thanks
NB. I should mention do not read notes and I don't plan on learning either.


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[stanron]

There doesn't have to be a bridge. In terms of structure there are no absolute rules. Yesterday and Blackbird are two Paul McCartney songs with no bridge. There is one Roy Orbison song, and I can't recall off hand which it is, that has no repeated part in it's structure, but the narrative is sufficient to keep the listener involved. Make your own rules.

[mattbn73]

Take some time to write out Nashville numbers changes for great tunes. Many you could find online already. This is perceived as being kind of optional for PLAYERS -at least there's debate-, but if you want to create something specific, harmonically, it's absolutely ESSENTIAL - as a WRITER - to understand what's going on at this basic level.

What are some of your favorite bridges and what are the changes?

[mattbn73]

Many devices used in harmony for great bridges. Sometimes it's only the melody which changes. U2's With or Without You and One both have bridges added to live versions which use the chorus changes.

Sometimes, the changes are the same as another section, but with different harmonic rhythm: same changes but instead of every 4 beats, it's every 2 (or every 8).

Sometimes there's an outside chord. Start with the circle of 5ths, and work with the chords "just outside", on either side. Things like a II or II7. or maybe a bVII chord (from the other side).

But again, this is most easily done by analyzing great tunes. If you're not down with basic Roman numeral (out Nashville number) analysis, this is a very good reason to work on it.

[Northward]

Originally Posted by mattbn73

...
Sometimes there's an outside chord. Start with the circle of 5ths, and work with the chords "just outside", on either side. Things like a II or II7. or maybe a bVII chord (from the other side).

I don't understand what you mean here. Is it possible to give the same advice without using therms from a system unknown to me? (I'm not trying to be rude or anything) I'm sure it's a fine system, but I only read chords.

I really should learn that 'circle of fifths', though I suspect I may use it by ear in my composing without knowing the theory.







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[Northward]

Originally Posted by stanron

There doesn't have to be a bridge. In terms of structure there are no absolute rules. Yesterday and Blackbird are two Paul McCartney songs with no bridge. There is one Roy Orbison song, and I can't recall off hand which it is, that has no repeated part in it's structure, but the narrative is sufficient to keep the listener involved. Make your own rules.

I absolutely agree that some rules are ment to be broken. And it's not like I'm desperately trying to get bridges in mine. Like you said, many famous songs works great without. But it's great when a songs chorus get that "even higher" lift effect that come after a good Bridge. And it happens to be the hardest bit for me to get. Quite possible because the lack of music theory.

Good, to the point books is what I could use. Like those "... for dummies" [emoji28]


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[rick-slo]

Listen to a dozen or more songs you feel have great bridges and analyze what they did in each of them. Copy some of those ideas.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by Northward

Bridges are hard, when you want that effect of lifting the refrain. All I know is that minor is often used for this effect.

Also, I wish harmonies came to me natural (I'm not that musical). ...
I'd like to work on them with more 'tools in the toolbox', so to speak. With recording in mind.

Would be nice to know more about harmonies and ways to make a chorus 'pop'. Also, bridges.. why do I find them never 'showing up easy'

Yes, sounds like you're ready for a little fundamental theory, since it's hard to analyze what you are hearing without it and it's hard to communicate with others about it if you don't have the vocab. You could maybe post a link to something you'd like to be able to emulate and we could tell you what it's doing. I've just learned theory in the last year so it's easy for me to keep the explanation simple for a beginner (not so much others who've known theory for decades). Maybe try that?

That being said, I'm like you, I have always made up songs but didn't have any theory before to help me through less intuitive bridges and such.

Here's an easy one I "discovered" accidentally that works well to lift the chorus.

The song is in F#minor which, if you don't know, is nice to play in because it has F#m, Bm, and C#m which are simple barres that are easy to change between, then all the major chords are open D, A, E. You might try it if you haven't.

I play the verse with a certain rhythm with just the minor barre chords (F#m, Bm, and C#m in that order is a simple i, iv, v that you'll recognize even if you don't know the numbers), then I switch to a more strident rhythm for the chorus using the open majors. Works a treat.

For a bridge, try a simple variation on the notes and chords you are already using, like if you are playing only open chords, switch to fingerpicking notes from the same chords without a pattern but with some rhythm that fits and you've got a melody using the same notes but different enough to be a bridge. It's a start.

For harmonies, you can always just try moving things up a third or a fifth (but there's that theory thing again).

If you want some simple theory, I'm happy to help, just PM.

[Northward]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

Yes, sounds like you're ready for a little fundamental theory, since it's hard to analyze what you are hearing without it and it's hard to communicate with others about it if you don't have the vocab. You could maybe post a link to something you'd like to be able to emulate and we could tell you what it's doing. I've just learned theory in the last year so it's easy for me to keep the explanation simple for a beginner (not so much others who've known theory for decades). Maybe try that?

That being said, I'm like you, I have always made up songs but didn't have any theory before to help me through less intuitive bridges and such.

Here's an easy one I "discovered" accidentally that works well to lift the chorus.

The song is in F#minor which, if you don't know, is nice to play in because it has F#m, Bm, and C#m which are simple barres that are easy to change between, then all the major chords are open D, A, E. You might try it if you haven't.

I play the verse with a certain rhythm with just the minor barre chords (F#m, Bm, and C#m in that order is a simple i, iv, v that you'll recognize even if you don't know the numbers), then I switch to a more strident rhythm for the chorus using the open majors. Works a treat.

For a bridge, try a simple variation on the notes and chords you are already using, like if you are playing only open chords, switch to fingerpicking notes from the same chords without a pattern but with some rhythm that fits and you've got a melody using the same notes but different enough to be a bridge. It's a start.

For harmonies, you can always just try moving things up a third or a fifth (but there's that theory thing again).

If you want some simple theory, I'm happy to help, just PM.

Thank you so mucht for this

And yes, it's about time I'd learned the basics to expand my arsenal of compsing tools. I'm looking for a book now with big illustrations (I'm a bit dyslectic and have problems with alot of theory in text form)
I'll try your song here and see what I can I learn.

Here are a couple of old hits I enjoy listening to just cause their have great harmonies and are melancolic and beautiful I guess.

The Cars - Drive.
https://youtu.be/6pf7iWrU_D0

a-ha - Crying in the rain (great bridge /B-theme) I prefeer it to the original.
https://youtu.be/dNTGtAFzZ5U

This is new and my absolute favorite this summer. Haven't had the same heavy rotation on a song since I was a teenager. Great track! I really think he'll transsend genre and break trough to become an international megastar after this last record. Love the brigde in this song.
Chronixx - Skanking Sweet
https://youtu.be/-5jp3j_yFQw

[Looburst]

I've lived in Nashville for the past 25 years and have come to realize a few things and tricks, as you say, for accomplishing this. Sometimes you can fiddle with changing the chorus progression, while using the same chords but in a different way that brings you back to the chorus. That's one of the easiest. Sometimes you only need a few of the chorus chords, sometimes only one, depending on how long your bridge is. Since most bridges consist of only one or two lines of lyric, try a walk up the neck based on the 1 chord of the song or the first chord of the chorus. Say your song's chorus is G, C and D then back to G, try the D to G then go to Em, repeat and rinse into the chorus. Just a few ideas to get you started.

[Northward]

Originally Posted by Looburst

I've lived in Nashville for the past 25 years and have come to realize a few things and tricks, as you say, for accomplishing this. Sometimes you can fiddle with changing the chorus progression, while using the same chords but in a different way that brings you back to the chorus. That's one of the easiest. Sometimes you only need a few of the chorus chords, sometimes only one, depending on how long your bridge is. Since most bridges consist of only one or two lines of lyric, try a walk up the neck based on the 1 chord of the song or the first chord of the chorus. Say your song's chorus is G, C and D then back to G, try the D to G then go to Em, repeat and rinse into the chorus. Just a few ideas to get you started.

Super! Great stuff with tips on 'how to', thanks alot
I was just strumming along on one of my songs and found a nice bridge for it, before I read your post. This song happens to start on C, and a little bridge "melody round" starting with Cmaj7 did the trick. Happy bwoy over here.

Also, this is an old song that I've transposed and changed around a bit and it's rewarding improving a song so it goes from ok to - "I think I'd like to record this".

NB. Nashville you say... any chance of getting booked on one of the zillion festivals? No wait! No bands are getting through US customs anymore... haha

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Northward

I don't understand what you mean here. Is it possible to give the same advice without using therms from a system unknown to me? (I'm not trying to be rude or anything) I'm sure it's a fine system, but I only read chords.

In key of G major, "II or II7" means A major or D7. "bVII" means F.

Originally Posted by Northward

I really should learn that 'circle of fifths', though I suspect I may use it by ear in my composing without knowing the theory.

The circle of 5ths is essentially a diagram of the 12 keys, arranged so that each one is only one note different from the next (one more sharp, or one more flat). But it's also a useful guide to what chords go together, by showing the 6 main chords in one key in a quarter segment of the circle. (For this purpose, you'd ignore the key signatures round the outside - only the key sig for your key chord applies.)


You can pick a key (say G), and the other five diatonic chords are all around it. C (IV) on one side, D(V) on the other, and the three minor chords inside those: Am (ii), Em (vi), Bm (iii). The roman numerals simply refer to scale degrees starting from the root: G A B C D E in this case, with lower case used for the minors. (The theoretical vii chord is F#dim, but nobody uses that one. Ever...*)

It doesn't mean you can ONLY use those chords! Neighbouring chords to that 6-chord block can also work (such as the A and F that mattbn73 was referring to).
The further you get from the 6 "diatonic" key chords, the more "out" - less related - the chords will sound. But that might sometimes be a sound you want!
Essentially, you can say that any chords that are next to one another in the circle will sound good next to one another in a sequence!

My advice is to keep trusting your ear, but there are a couple of common systems of applying "chromatic" chords (from outside the key) which you might like to know about (they should be sounds you'll recognise):

1. Secondary dominants

These are mostly chords from the clockwise side of the key block, and classically they are brought in to make more positive moves to diatonic chords. In key of G, you can have the following:
A - goes to D
E - goes to Am
B - goes to Em
F# - goes to Bm
The other secondary dominant is G7, to go to C.
Secondary dominants are extremely common in jazz - very rare to find a jazz tune without any - not so common in rock. (An A major chord might occur without going o D.)

2. Borrowed chords

These are usually from the "parallel minor" key, meaning the minor key on the same root note - i.e. G minor in this case. These are chords from the anti-clockwise, or "dark" side of the six-chord key block. The common ones in G major are:
F, Bb, Eb, Cm.
Borrowed chords from the parallel minor are extremely common in rock. Rock songs in G major are more likely to include an F chord than not.

* OK, you get varieties of dim chords in jazz, but you can basically ignore them if writing pop or rock. If you use a V7 chord (D7 in key of G) that chord includes all the notes of the vii chord anyway, and is easier to play.

[Northward]

Man, big thank you! I love it

This was so clearly explained that I got it! Imagine that I have even playing around with a computer program with that circle, but didn't really get the theory before now... Feel a bit silly now. I really thought this system was so much more complicated(!) Cause I never understood all those musicians speking in numbers like that. Just had a vauge idea. But of course now I must apply often so it gets familiar.

Thanks again This is going up on the wall. (yes, and on the bathroom too!)

[Northward]

Originally Posted by JonPR

1. Secondary dominants

These are mostly chords from the clockwise side of the key block, and classically they are brought in to make more positive moves to diatonic chords. In key of G, you can have the following:
A - goes to D
E - goes to Am
B - goes to Em
F# - goes to Bm
The other secondary dominant is G7, to go to C.
Secondary dominants are extremely common in jazz - very rare to find a jazz tune without any - not so common in rock. (An A major chord might occur without going o D.)

2. Borrowed chords

These are usually from the "parallel minor" key, meaning the minor key on the same root note - i.e. G minor in this case. These are chords from the anti-clockwise, or "dark" side of the six-chord key block.

One question.

When you write - X goes to Z etc, am I to just take this as a common known fact that they work well together, without trying to make an optical sense of this on the wheel itself? The neighbouring quarter of tones looks 'logical' and these others are more "rules" that you can't read from the formula?

Hope I made sense of this..

[zhunter]

Google "how to write a chorus". Resources should last you a while. Learn the craft element. Like painters learn to mix colors. The art may come.

hunter