Can't Beat The Buzz!

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by steveyam

I have yet - after hundreds of guitars - to experience one where you set it up with more relief, a higher action, and as a result, it buzzes.

Not what I was talking about. Better re-read what I wrote. I am suggesting a case with too much relief and too low action.

Originally Posted by steveyam

But then again this isn't the first time we've disagreed on things. Like you reckon one should set nut height before saddle height, when I've given very clear, irrefutable reasons that when going for a low action, you are very likely to find that subsequent lowering of the saddle can lead to buzzing at the first fret. Any luthier worth his salt will tell you that. Yes, you can get away with doing nut first, but it's pure luck! Ned, you just don't get it! I can't help that, and here we have a similar situation; you're flying in the face of logic, common knowledge and the laws of physics.

Being frank, Steve, I think you should mellow your tone. There are good reasons to do nut cutting first. You (and others) choose to do the saddle height first. I (and others) choose to do nut first. Is one right and one wrong? No. Whatever works. And I think I have a bit more than just luck on my side. Be careful of your jabs, they are not fair and suggest more about you than about me.

Do you adjust the saddle before you do a fret levelling?? I hope, "No," is your answer. The nut slot depths have more to do with a direct relationship with the plane of the frets than any other adjustment (neck relief or saddle height), so the nut slots should be matched to fret height with a bit of extra height as I, we, and many others of us (forum members) have discussed before. With older and lower quality guitars exhibiting unlevel frets, and owners that do not wish to invest in a full fret job or re-fret where warranted, then it can help avoid buzzing to cut the nut slots higher than they can stand to be cut on a nut of a guitar with a top quality fret job. Whether this task is done before or after the saddle adjustment is irrelevant if consistent and quality results can be obtained. I can distinguish nut slot depth (height) requirements before or after saddle action is adjusted, and I choose to adjust it before hand.

Before you go suggesting again that I am not worth my salt, please send me a PM and don't post it publicly. There is no need of that.

[WaddyT]

I'd agree with that. I like to get the nut in the neighborhood before I start adjusting the saddle. I might leave a bit of room for error, but I like to be close there. I can always fine tune it later without making big changes in the action at the 12th.

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by WaddyT

I'd agree with that. I like to get the nut in the neighborhood before I start adjusting the saddle. I might leave a bit of room for error, but I like to be close there. I can always fine tune it later without making big changes in the action at the 12th.

Basically you're saying that you'll fine tune the nut LAST. And that's what I do. It eliminates any chance of buzzing at the first fret as a result of subsequent lowering at the saddle. Conversely, setting saddle height last = potential for first fret buzz. It just does! If people are 'getting away with it' doing it 'saddle last' it's because they've never needed to, or simply don't try to get as low an action as possible at the nut. A low action at the nut gives two clear benefits to the guitar/player; easier chording (less fluffed notes), and better intonation. If as a tech you strive for that - and generally that's the goal - then 'nut after saddle' is the only safe way. Period.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by steveyam

If people are 'getting away with it' doing it 'saddle last' it's because they've never needed to, or simply don't try to get as low an action as possible at the nut. A low action at the nut gives two clear benefits to the guitar/player; easier chording (less fluffed notes), and better intonation. If as a tech you strive for that - and generally that's the goal - then 'nut after saddle' is the only safe way. Period.

Steve, you seem to be confident with your own method and that is fine, as I have commented before - "If it works, use it - if it doesn't, don't". For you, if nut after saddle is YOUR only safe way, stick with it and power to you. But don't think for a minute that the same results cannot be obtained consistently by doing the nut first, then saddle.

It is highly ingenuous of you to deny that there is more than one means to an end, and that the way you choose is the only acceptable way. It gives a poor signal to those in this forum who are reading to try to learn and understand guitar setup more deeply.

Each person will have slight variations in methodology. I don't deny that you are probably setting up guitars well (based upon the fact that you often share good advice here on this forum), even though you do your nut/saddle adjustments in reverse order to me, and you do not seem to seek to understand the merit of doing a nut first. I think you should accept that methods that fall outside your choice or understanding may still be valid. I accept you and your way,,Steve, I really do. Please afford me and others the same courtesy, and try to avoid blanket statements that deny that other valid methods exist. (Ie: "Nut after saddle is the only safe way. Period." Again, comments like that suggest more about your own attitudes then they do about others' skills and quality of craftsmanship.

I think we should continue to focus on the Original Poster's issue.

To the OP - Apologies that the focus of this thread began to turn away from your issue.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by HCG Canada

It is highly ingenuous of you to deny that there is more than one means to an end, and that the way you choose is the only acceptable way.

Typo: "ingenuous" above should read "disingenuous". The "edit post" function does not seem to be working, so I am appending.

[John Arnold]

I think we should continue to focus on the Original Poster's issue.

With a guitar with LOW action and too great a truss rod based bow, notes can fret out near the middle of the neck and on upwards. With too much bow and low action, the action is in fact lower near the 14th frets and beyond, whereas the action on the middle of the neck is in fact higher. In such a situation, straightening the neck and raising the saddle will indeed improve the unwanted fretting out near 5th fret and beyond. In the situation of too much bow, the deepest part of the bow is in the middle of the neck. By fretting notes in the deepest part of this U-shape, the geometry is such that the strings are too close to higher frets causing string to fret buzzing.

I could not have said it better.
When a guitar is only buzzing past the 5th fret, the first thing I check is that the neck has too much relief. The cure is to tighten the truss rod and raise the saddle.
Cranking the truss rod to raise/lower the action without regard to the relief measurement (or noting the location of the buzzing) is a rookie mistake, IMHO.
And if you understand that nut height adjustments should be independent of action, then you would never adjust the nut height last.
This goes to the practice of measuring the action at the first fret, which I never do. If the nut height is set the same as the fret plane (as it should be), the action height at the first fret will take care of itself when the relief and saddle height are adjusted properly.
A few years ago, I saw several brand-new Martins that came from the factory with too much relief in the neck. With the truss rod adjusted properly, the action would be too low. These were primarily GE models with glued-in saddles, so I am sure that the supervisor was telling the set-up guy to get the guitars out the door as fast as possible, so he just loosened the rod, rather than changing the glued-in saddle (which in the factory meant changing the whole bridge).

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

... if you understand that nut height adjustments should be independent of action ...

John, what does that even mean ?

"Action", to guitarists, means the ease or otherwise of fretting the strings ...at any point on the fretboard from the first fret to the 21st.

How can the nut height adjustments be " independent of the action " ? I do realise that you are using the word "action" in a specialised usage, as the distance between the string and fret at the 12th/14th fret.

Nut height adjustments are absolutely crucial to determining the ease of the action, IMO.

[John Arnold]

Nut height adjustments are absolutely crucial to determining the ease of the action, IMO.

Of course that is true.
What I am saying is that there is only one correct nut height....the same as the frets. If the nut height is correct, then the action at the first fret (or any other fret) will be determined solely by the relief and the saddle height.
That is why you can set the nut height first, as long as you do not gauge it by measuring first fret action.
If you do gauge the nut height by measuring the first fret action, then you can run into the problems outlined by Steveyam.

The distance from the nut to the first fret is about 11% of the distance from the nut to the 12th. With the correct nut height and no relief in the neck, the first fret action with be 11% of the 12th fret action. There is no need to measure it.

How can the nut height adjustments be " independent of the action?

Go back to my previous post. In it, I explained why the nut height should be the same as the frets.
If you put a capo on the first fret, then the nut has no effect on the action. Your new 'nut' is exactly the height of the frets. There is no logical reason for the actual nut to be any different.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

John, what does that even mean ?

"Action", to guitarists, means the ease or otherwise of fretting the strings ...at any point on the fretboard from the first fret to the 21st.

How can the nut height adjustments be " independent of the action " ? I do realise that you are using the word "action" in a specialised usage, as the distance between the string and fret at the 12th/14th fret.

Nut height adjustments are absolutely crucial to determining the ease of the action, IMO.

The nut height should be based on the plane (and curvature when bowed) of the top of the frets. The "action" of a guitar is basically set by the saddle and balanced across the neck with the truss rod (bow of the neck).

In the same way as levelling the plane of the top of the frets is independent of saddle height and final bow dialed in by the truss rod, the nut slots which are most closely related to the plane of the top of the frets is also independent of saddle height and final neck bow.

[Bugeyed]

I thought that I understood that I should adjust the height of the nut before adjusting the saddle, but I read this from Charles Tauber;

"4. ADJUSTING THE STRING HEIGHT AT THE SADDLE
The saddle height can be adjusted either before or after adjusting the string height at the nut. My preference is to adjust the string height at the saddle before adjusting the nut."
"5. ADJUSTING THE STRING HEIGHT AT THE NUT
Once the neck relief and the string height at the saddle have been correctly set, the string height at the nut can be adjusted, if necessary."

It made sense to me that the nut height adjustment should be done before the saddle, because it can change the action at the 12th fret, or is it such a small change that it doesn't matter. Now I understand that nut height is referenced to the fret height, but am I seeing it wrong that by doing the saddle first might necessitate redoing the saddle after I adjust the nut height? I think I am getting confused!?!?!?

Kev

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Bugeyed

I thought that I understood that I should adjust the height of the nut before adjusting the saddle, but I read this from Charles Tauber...The saddle height can be adjusted either before or after adjusting the string height at the nut. My preference is to adjust the string height at the saddle before adjusting the nut."

If the string height at the nut is the same as the fret height, it doesn't matter in what order one adjusts the string height at the nut - it will always be the same height as the frets. The saddle height doesn't change that. Note that we are not talking about the string height above the first fret, but the string height at the nut.

It made sense to me that the nut height adjustment should be done before the saddle, because it can change the action at the 12th fret, or is it such a small change that it doesn't matter. Now I understand that nut height is referenced to the fret height, but am I seeing it wrong that by doing the saddle first might necessitate redoing the saddle after I adjust the nut height? I think I am getting confused!?!?!?

Unless the change in string height at the nut is extraordinarily large, it won't affect the string height at the 12th fret significantly.

I have great respect for the knowledge and experience of both John and Ned and the approach they use. My experience has been that by subtly tweaking the string height at the nut - I like to increase it above the height of the frets by between .006" and .008", it allows me a little more latitude in setup. That is, I'm not entirely dependent upon saddle height and neck relief to provide clearance over the first fret. In my experience, the longer, unfretted open string has a minimally larger amplitude than that of the shorter fretted notes. Providing those few thousandths of an inch accommodates that. Others have slightly different approaches.

[John Arnold]

In my experience, the longer, unfretted open string has a minimally larger amplitude than that of the shorter fretted notes.

It does, but the question is whether it is proportional to the string length, since the distance to the first fret is proportionally the same as the distance from the first fret to the second. In other words, each succeeding fret is 5.61% of the remaining string length. As it turns out, the string amplitude decreases faster than the decrease in the string length of fretted notes, so some compensation is necessary. That is where relief comes into the picture. In most cases, relief by itself is enough to compensate for this, but YMMV.
Another factor in playability in the first position is the rising of the neck near the nut under string tension. This is caused by the torque on the neck due to the string downpressure at the nut. A neck that is not reinforced in this area will often cause the first fret to be higher, necessitating a high nut. Once the frets are leveled under string tension, the nut can then be lowered slightly. This is often only about 0.005", but every little bit helps.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by Bugeyed

It made sense to me that the nut height adjustment should be done before the saddle, because it can change the action at the 12th fret, or is it such a small change that it doesn't matter. Now I understand that nut height is referenced to the fret height, but am I seeing it wrong that by doing the saddle first might necessitate redoing the saddle after I adjust the nut height? I think I am getting confused!?!?!?

Kev

A height adjustment of 1mm at either saddle OR nut will change the 12th fret action (string height) by half, or 0.5mm

Since even "extremely high" nut slots are usually not more than .5 or .6 of a mm out, the 12th fret action would only change by about .3 mm or less. Not so significant of a change of 12th fret action, but certainly good to keep in mind if adjusting the saddle first.

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by HCG Canada

A height adjustment of 1mm at either saddle OR nut will change the 12th fret action (string height) by half, or 0.5mm

Since even "extremely high" nut slots are usually not more than .5 or .6 of a mm out, the 12th fret action would only change by about .3 mm or less. Not so significant of a change of 12th fret action, but certainly good to keep in mind if adjusting the saddle first.

The issue of setting the height of the nut or saddle last is one of safety. If you set the nut slots for the lowest of actions; ie the strings are just 'skimming', though not actually buzzing on the first fret, then if you subsequently lower the action at the saddle, it may be the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Quite simply, YOU MAY END UP WITH A BUZZ AT THE FIRST FRET. The issue or problem is not one of how much effect adjusting the nut has upon the 12th fret action (miniscule), it's one of, "oh no, I just lowered the saddle (last) and now the darned thing buzzes at the first fret"!. In the past, before I made a mental note to file the nut slots LAST, I have done this and had to replace or shim the nut as a result. Like I keep saying, adjust the saddle height last if you like, nine times out of ten you'll be ok, but one day, sooner or later, when you're going for a very low action (if you're ever going to do that) the aforementioned problem will rear it's head and bite, and you'll have to lift the nut. It's no more work to do it one or the other!; just that 'nut last' totally eliminates the problem.

[Bugeyed]

Originally Posted by steveyam

If you set the nut slots for the lowest of actions; ie the strings are just 'skimming', though not actually buzzing on the first fret,

Steve, can you outline your procedure for adjusting the nut height? I have always adjusted the nut slots to the height of the frets &, when fretting the string above the 2nd, the string should "just" clear the 1st fret. I would like to see if your procedure works for me in some situations. Just wanting another tool for my tool box.

Cheers,
kev