Advice on getting a start in building

[GnLguy]

I am no longer working due to some health issues that stems from injuries in a car wreck a few years ago. I'm now wanting to begin building guitars, in addition to playing more. I had to lay the guitar aside many times while I was working and raising my family. In the past 2 years, I've spent more time playing than I had in any other period of time so disability has some bright spots.

Anyway, I want to start building guitars as a hobby and possibly a business. I've done some minor repairs already but I know that I have a lot to learn.
I have some ideas that I want to employ in designs for semi-hollow guitars. The pic that I've included is an Ibanez AGS-83 which was just a production type model that sold for about $600 new that is one of those gems that hasn't stopped surprising me since I got it. Even with the stock Ibanez ceramic pickups, its a tone machine. Bought it used online for $300 from GC and it still had the plastic on the pickups. Probably NOS.
Since it was such a good find and fit for me, this will be the overall body shape for a semi-hollow that would be my starting point.

However, I actually want to start building acoustics, preferably a grand auditorium or folk body. In order to learn, I wanted to go to Galloup school in Michigan but that fell thru due to not being able to afford it.

As a second choice, I am considering using Robert O'brien's online course and the kit that he put together at Luthiers Mercantile International

Any other suggestion? Are there any schools or online training that could be suggested?
Would appreciate any sources for tools and supplies as well

Ideally, I would like to have someone to work with but that isn't always possible.

[charles Tauber]

My recommendation is to stick with one approach, good, bad or indifferent. Trying to mix and match approaches while learning the basic mechanics/woodworking makes life much more difficult. There are many different methods/approaches that makers use, most of which can produce excellent results. Follow one of those. Once you have that one down, look at other methods and adopt or adapt as you wish.

Mr. O'brien's educational materials seem to me to be top-notch. Not the same as hands-on, but seem like an excellent alternative.

[Frank Ford]

As difficult as it is to learn to build efficiently and well, it's equally difficult to learn what to build and how to market your work.

Here's some solid, if not popular or romantic advice:

Start buying used guitars that need work, fix 'em up and sell them.

You'll learn the craft and the market, and get a real sense of what was done by past makers - when, how, and why.

Going to a school or online courses can be useful, but it's only a way to scratch the surface. The real learning comes from doing, making mistakes, redoing, losing money and making money.

[Troles]

Gnlguy,
I am 25% done withe my first build. I build 4 cigar box guitars last year and enjoyed so decided 6 months ago to build a classical acoustic. I spent 3 months researching my build method. I read 4 books and watched countless hours of internet vids. Personally I bought my wood at lmii.com and if you do the build kit you get about $100 off. I then spent a week practicing with a planer and chisel, scraper and sharpening skills.
As for Obrien, I have not seen his DVD, but I have watched all his free utube vids and he is great.
I also read the sloane, courtnall, Cumpiano and bogdanovich books, the last 2 being the best.
Each teaching method has pros and cons, but like the above poster said, I strongly believe you must chose 1 method/instructor and stick to that for the whole build on your first build. If you try to use bits and pieces from each on your first build I think you will accidentally mess something up.
Cumpiano book many say is the "bible" of lutherie and uses a lot of hand tools . Probably the most popular book. Bogdanovich book is good, great photos, and uses a lot of jigs and power tools. He also has a DVD series but I did not buy it. More info on his web site. Amazon has both books and I recommend reading both irregardless of what method you chose.
As mentioned, haven't seen the Obrien series but I like his you tube vids.
Main difference to me was Obrien and bogdanovich use a radius dish it build and Cumpiano does not.
I chose to follow the Cumpiano book 100%, as it seemed to me to be the simplest and most tried and true. I often still refer to the others for fun and interest, but am sticking to just one build method for my first. I will use a different instructor/book/build method for my second guitar, then eventually merge into my own personal technique.
I have been building for a few months, but only get 5 hours a week, so only 25-30% done. Very fun. Lots of time upfront building jigs and such. My main advice is stick to one teacher 100% for first build.

[marioed]

I think starting from a kit for your first build is a pretty good way to go & I've had good luck with the lmi kits. I used them for my first 3 builds. I go along with everyone else who recommends picking one method and sticking with that for your first build. John Hall at Blue Creek guitars, http://www.bluescreekguitars.com/, also puts together kits & offers instruction. You might want to check him out, he's a good guy.

You didn't mention how much wood working experience you have. If you're new to woodworking you might want to consider taking a few classes. Things like sharpening hand tools, setting up and using power tools are skills you'll want if you plan to build more than a couple of guitars. Woodcraft stores, http://www.woodcraft.com/default.asp...d=woodcrafters, offer some free or low cost classes throughout the year. Some community colleges do as well.

Regards,
Ed

[Ned Milburn]

FWIW...

First and foremost, I think it is important to define your goals.

You want to start building guitars, but do you want to be a professional luthier, or just build for enjoyment?? Very different things that require a different approach.

And if you want to become a pro, then you really have to apprentice with a pro to maximize your pace. Parachuting into guitar building with a basic knowledge of guitars and woodworking may seem fine, but it must be remembered that most successful luthiers likely started small and had the tenacity to carry themselves through difficult times in the beginning of their careers.

I often say that building guitars is easy. Building them beautifully is more difficult. Add more difficulty to building a guitar that is beautiful, sounds beautiful, feels beautiful to play, and is structurally balanced to be light but resist the stress of strings pulling constantly over decades. Selling them is an entirely different matter, whether they are well or poorly built.

Any goal, however long term it may be, is achievable through realistic steps towards the goal. Depending upon one's starting point with the guitar, you will have quicker or slower advancement towards your goal.

Attributes useful to guitar building include:

Good eyes - being able to judge lines and curves, and differences of only a thousandth or two of an inch.

Good touch - carving is as much tactile as it is visual, and the same can be said for many operations.

Steady hands

Good ears (and understanding of the harmonic series and tuning) - On a good guitar, I can often hear a G# note (triple octave plus a major 3rd) on the low E string by just playing the open string. An understanding of harmonics can be the heart of figuring out how to make a guitar sound full and balanced. (I studied music in university. Major was jazz guitar/arranging/composition, but I also studied voice and sang in many choirs, studied classical guitar, and oboe. You can learn a hell of a lot more about tuning with a multi-disciplinary approach than being limited to the guitar.) Long and short, I have sensitive and trained ears that help me in my guitar building vocation.

Resourcefulness - Don't have a tool or a jig that you need...?? Can you make one?? If yes, then you become stronger and more independent, and waiting for new expensive specialized tools to arrive won't slow down your building process.

A short comment regarding the books mentioned above...

Personally, I don't care for the Bogdanovich book very much. I don't have much criticism of it, just that it isn't very useful for me. On the other hand, the Courtnall book is invaluable since it has nearly full measurements for several guitars. These measurements, and being able to understand how they fit into the whole of each individual guitar design, is of critical importance to me.

Again, define your goals, be realistic with your expectations. Guitar building is NOT a profession like carpentry where if you learn the skills and do a good job you should be able to find work. Guitar building can be lonely and you need to be a businessman with strong sales and marketing skills to make it a "career".

[B. Howard]

Building guitars is hard, making money at building guitars is even harder. As a small builder you would likely not even be able to buy the materials and supplies to build the guitar you pictured for $600. Lower priced import guitars get better every year and the bar for what is expected for a custom made guitar gets higher. Not trying to be discouraging just honest about the business end of this.

You also do not mention what wood working experience you have or tooling. Even as a hobby you will need a fairly well equipped woodshop to do much beyond assembling guitars from kits. You will need at the least a bandsaw and a drillpress as far as power tools but to do work quickly and efficiently you will also want things like a table saw, miter saw, joiner, planer and perhaps a thickness sander. A wide selection of hand tools is also mandatory as are lot's of specialized tools for things like fretting, binding, nut making and set up. And then there is finishing, which is a whole other endeavor. Even the average hobbyist winds up with a significant investment in tooling.

I would suggest getting your feet wet by starting with a a kit. I also recommend http://www.bluescreekguitars.com/, John is a great guy and he will be there to help when you have questions. Build a kit or three and see how that goes. Franks advice on buying old guitars and fixing them is also very good, you will indeed learn more about construction by repairing old guitars than you will from lots of books. And speaking of books if you decide to go on and start building from scratch I would recomend a copy of "Guitar making, technology and tradition" by William R. Cumpiano.

[redir]

First off sorry to hear about your car accident, been in 3 myself and hit by a car twice riding my bike, none my fault. People really need to pay more attention on the roads! I was lucky.

I think the sticking with one method approach is good advice. I can say this because I did not do that myself and it made for a rough journey. When I started there was no wealth of information on the Internet so I used books and talked to some builders in the area (Washington DC at the time) so I changed methods quite a few times. I've now got my own hybrid way of doing almost everything and it works but it's a bit of a cluster at first.

I'm not sure how I feel about building kits and I don't mean to belittle anyone who does because fact is they have worked well for a lot of people. But there is something to be said about roughing out all your pieces, bracing, tops and backs and sides, linings, bindings, and so on. Your first guitar will truly be your first guitar. If you plan on making many guitars then you are going to have to learn to do it anyway so you may as well get started. But I can see how a kit would at least be a fundamental introduction. I guess if building a kit frustrates you then you will know right away that this type of work is not for you.

The other thing is tools. Get the right tools for the job and don't try to skimp and use something else that might work. The right tool for the job will save you countless head aches and increase the quality of your work, again I know this from experience

I've followed O'Briens Luthier Tips Dojour video's for years and he seems like a good teacher and has lots of good tips and advice. It probably is a good place to start. But expose your self to as many methods as you can at first and pick one that resonates with you.

[LouieAtienza]

My advice to add to the others: Buy your tools and build your jigs as you need them. Do not buy every tool you think you need off the bat, and don't build every jig before you start. You may find a different tool that will accomplish the same task more efficiently, or you may just have a different way of working where one tool feels more comfortable and natural. Also tools can get expensive, very expensive, so you'll have to balance quality, needs, and performance. StewMac and LMI have tools and jigs for every possible scenario in guitarmaking, and it can get easy to get caught up in tool frenzy. You can build a guitar with surprisingly few tools, but to do so and actually be profitable is another thing. At the same time laying out a ton of cash of every power tool is nice, but that has to be weighed against how long it will take to recover that investment. Even a decent plane or set of chisels will set you back.

OK one more advice: if you decide to invest in power tools, get tools that will allow you to dimension your own stock. This will save you a lot of money in the long run, as dimensioned guitar woods are very pricey - even common domestic woods. This would mean at least a 14" bandsaw, and if possible a wide belt sander.

[GnLguy]

All

Everyone of you have posted some great advice and have given me a lot to consider.

Injuries from the car wreck will limit me as I move forward. Memorial Day weekend 2008, drunk driver from Russia that spoke no English with a Kansas drivers license in Ohio drove his Mazda Mirage into the back bumper of my SUV doing about 40mph when I was stopped at a traffic light. My neck was the weakest link in the equation and now, each day is an adventure as to what I will deal with. Its now hard for me to look down at a bench for extended periods of time so I will have to set up my workstation a bit differently.

I have over 20 years as an electronic repair tech and much of my work has been refurbishing and repairing equipment. I've also done my share of home projects as far as typical repairs. I have some power tools and some knowledge - yet much to learn.... and to buy
All this plays in my favor of knowing how to work with my hands, I just have to learn new skills for instrument building

I have been buying the project guitars from Craigslist and Ebay. So far, I've repaired a couple of acoustics with a couple of other waiting. First, was a 25th Anniversary Alvarez model 2551. Previous owner had broke the headstock off of it and someone had attempted repair without clamping it. Cleaned it up and used some Gorilla polyurethane glue and I play it almost everyday now. Its marked inside as having been handcrafted and its a great sounding guitar.
Second, was another Alvarez - a Grand Auditorium that someone had botched a repair on a top crack. I made some mistakes on this one but moved last fall so I don't have my workspace so we will say To Be Continued on this one. It was marked as a bad neck set but I installed a new bone nut and saddle and if its a bad set, I don't see it. Action seem good to me.

I have an Alvarez Masterworks parlor guitar being delivered today that the fretboard is pulling away from the neck. Hope its a simple fix b/c I should be able to turn a bit of a profit on this one.

I will probably find a junker next and learn to do fret work. Once I get my workshop built, I will need to learn how to finish. I've refinished furniture before but finishing a guitar is another story. One option that I want to try is a product called Wudtone. Looks promising for some applications

http://www.wudtone.com/2012/03/23/finishing-diykits/

Again, thanks to all for your responses

[redir]

Hey gnlguy, I'm not into new age, homeopathy, miracle cures and most of the BS I'm sure you have come across in dealing with your situation. I'm actually quite a skeptic having medical issues of my own with a myriad of 'miracle cures.' But I had a good friend that could barely walk after an accident for years till he found someone who was a sports practitioner who also was a master at Yoga and got him walking and almost back to normal after a year of therapy. I hope I'm not offering false hope but it's just a suggestion. Good luck to you and your new endeavors.

[GnLguy]

Originally Posted by redir

Hey gnlguy, I'm not into new age, homeopathy, miracle cures and most of the BS I'm sure you have come across in dealing with your situation. I'm actually quite a skeptic having medical issues of my own with a myriad of 'miracle cures.' But I had a good friend that could barely walk after an accident for years till he found someone who was a sports practitioner who also was a master at Yoga and got him walking and almost back to normal after a year of therapy. I hope I'm not offering false hope but it's just a suggestion. Good luck to you and your new endeavors.

Hey, Redir

After all that I've dealt with since 2008, I open to exploring anything that might help. Having studied martial arts for many years in my younger days, I can't help but to believe that Eastern medicine has some insights into medicine that we don't have here in the west. One of those insights is the widespread belief about chi in the Orient that I believe originated in China among the Shaolin monks, and it is actually the groundwork for chiropractic, accupuncture and accupressue. With an injury like I sustained, the chi or as we call it here in the west, nerve impulse, has been disrupted due to the damage and that is the source of my problems

My situation is that I will develop headaches that puts me down for the count for days at a time. I've learned that if I keep my neck in good condition through treatments, the headaches are less. I've found a great chiropractor in the town that I've just moved to and we are making progress

One thing that I've learned too is to rest my head in my easy chair while playing guitar. One of those great things that I can do while dealing with the health issues. I try to make good use of the time that I have regardless of how I'm feeling

Life could be a whole lot worse for me and I'm thankful for what I have