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  #1  
Old 03-05-2015, 02:08 PM
SantaCruzOMGuy SantaCruzOMGuy is offline
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Default suggestions for alternate tuning order?

Hello all, i have a setlist with the following tunings:

Standard
DropD
DBGDAD
ECGDAD
ECFEAD
EBEC#AD
C#CFD#G#C
D#,B,F#,E,G#,C#
EADC#AD

Can somebody suggest the best order to put those tunings to cause the least amount of strain on the strings/guitar? I figure there is a smart way to order those for the least amount of back and forth on the strings which leads to a break mid tune...

Thanks!
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  #2  
Old 03-08-2015, 08:42 AM
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Raggamuffin Raggamuffin is offline
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Assuming:
1) You want to start in standard tuning,
2) You never want to tune a string more than a whole step above what it would be in standard tuning,
3) You want to minimize the total amount of tuning changes (measured in half steps).

An "optimal" ordering of tunings would be:

EADGBE (Standard)
DADGBE (Drop D)
EADC#AD
EBEC#AD
DBGDAD
ECGDAD
ECFEAD
D#BF#EG#C#
C#CFD#G#C

This requires a total of 48 changes, measured in half steps.

[For the nerdy among us, this is a novel example of the classic traveling salesman problem (TSP) in operations research. In a TSP, a salesman needs to visit "n" cities in the most efficient manner, visiting each city exactly once. TSPs are notoriously difficult to solve because the number of possible solutions (given by n!) gets very large very fast as "n" increases. Even in this relatively simple problem with n=9 "cities" there are 362,880 possible orderings of tunings. Making the assumption that you want to start in standard tuning reduces the possible orderings to 40,320.]

Last edited by Raggamuffin; 03-08-2015 at 09:46 AM.
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  #3  
Old 03-09-2015, 04:28 AM
macmanmatty macmanmatty is offline
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How do you make DBGDAD tuning from EADGBE?? Infact how do you make DBGDAD tuning at all with out warping the neck or breaking strings?
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  #4  
Old 03-09-2015, 07:49 AM
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Raggamuffin Raggamuffin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macmanmatty View Post
How do you make DBGDAD tuning from EADGBE?? Infact how do you make DBGDAD tuning at all with out warping the neck or breaking strings?
I wondered the same sort of thing and asked the OP in a PM if he was tuning the 4th string up to G or down to G in DBGDAD. I asked about a couple of the other tunings as well. In all cases, the OP indicated the strings were being tuned down. That could result in some pretty loose strings in some of these tunings, but at least the strings won't break.
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Old 03-09-2015, 08:05 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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hey ragamuffin, i liked your posts.

the op also mentioned the least amount of back and forth. i wonder if that would factor in (i.e. tuning a string down, then down again, would be considered less strain then down then back up).

it would also be interesting to work it out for 2 guitars.

but also, santacruzomguy, besides the wear and tear on the strings, and tuning stability, the best flow of the tunes would seem important as well.
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Old 03-09-2015, 08:33 AM
SantaCruzOMGuy SantaCruzOMGuy is offline
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Wow. Thanks a ton, thats a great thorough analysis. Im assuming I can start at standard and keep going lower (lowering overall tension each time) or start at the bottom of the list and keep going higher (raising overall tension each time).

Macmanmatty, I get what your asking, that was my concern, but the reality is i've been somewhat bouncing around in these tunings and had no problem. The guitars are Stonebridge G23cr and Stonebridge OM.

I've seen Andy Mckee and Antoine dufour tune around a lot in concert no problem, so I figured I could too. I guess my guitar can't be abused like a workers' tool the way they can (as the maker will gladly replace if need be!)
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Old 03-09-2015, 10:00 AM
SantaCruzOMGuy SantaCruzOMGuy is offline
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I feel bad to say this, but I've realized looking closer at the replies that I didn't clarify in my initial post that i was putting those tunings in high string to low string order, meaning EBGDAE would be standard, not EADGBE...

So that probably changes everything? None of these turnings represent tuning a string more than one whole step higher than the standard turning for that string...

so, that being said again here are the turnings, with the first note being the highest string or standard high E string:

Standard
DropD
DBGDAD
ECGDAD
ECFEAD
EBEC#AD
C#CFD#G#C
D#,B,F#,E,G#,C#
EADC#AD


Would you mind still applying your better understanding of the best order to transition these for the sake of the guitar/strings?
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  #8  
Old 03-09-2015, 01:41 PM
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Raggamuffin Raggamuffin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaCruzOMGuy View Post
Would you mind still applying your better understanding of the best order to transition these for the sake of the guitar/strings?
No problem at all. (I love this kind of stuff!)

An "optimal" ordering based on the revised information would be:

EBGDAE (Standard)
EBGDAD (Drop D)
ECGDAD
DBGDAD
D#BF#EG#C#
C#CFD#G#C
ECFEAD
EBEC#AD
EADC#AD

This ordering requires a total of 34 changes (measured in half-steps).
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  #9  
Old 03-09-2015, 02:11 PM
SantaCruzOMGuy SantaCruzOMGuy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggamuffin View Post
No problem at all. (I love this kind of stuff!)

An "optimal" ordering based on the revised information would be:

EBGDAE (Standard)
EBGDAD (Drop D)
ECGDAD
DBGDAD
D#BF#EG#C#
C#CFD#G#C
ECFEAD
EBEC#AD
EADC#AD

This ordering requires a total of 34 changes (measured in half-steps).

Thanks so much, my guitars will thank you!
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  #10  
Old 03-09-2015, 03:19 PM
macmanmatty macmanmatty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaCruzOMGuy View Post
I feel bad to say this, but I've realized looking closer at the replies that I didn't clarify in my initial post that i was putting those tunings in high string to low string order, meaning EBGDAE would be standard, not EADGBE...

So that probably changes everything? None of these turnings represent tuning a string more than one whole step higher than the standard turning for that string...

so, that being said again here are the turnings, with the first note being the highest string or standard high E string:

Standard
DropD
DBGDAD
ECGDAD
ECFEAD
EBEC#AD
C#CFD#G#C
D#,B,F#,E,G#,C#
EADC#AD


Would you mind still applying your better understanding of the best order to transition these for the sake of the guitar/strings?
Ah low to high DADGBD makes MUCH more sense.
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  #11  
Old 03-09-2015, 03:51 PM
EoE EoE is offline
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or go buy 8 more guitars.
__________________
" A old guitar is all he can afford but when he gets under the lights he makes it sing'
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  #12  
Old 03-09-2015, 03:55 PM
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Raggamuffin Raggamuffin is offline
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Originally Posted by EoE View Post
or go buy 8 more guitars.
That's the best advice yet!
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  #13  
Old 03-14-2015, 03:07 PM
Jberczel Jberczel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raggamuffin View Post
Assuming:
1) You want to start in standard tuning,
2) You never want to tune a string more than a whole step above what it would be in standard tuning,
3) You want to minimize the total amount of tuning changes (measured in half steps).

An "optimal" ordering of tunings would be:

EADGBE (Standard)
DADGBE (Drop D)
EADC#AD
EBEC#AD
DBGDAD
ECGDAD
ECFEAD
D#BF#EG#C#
C#CFD#G#C

This requires a total of 48 changes, measured in half steps.

[For the nerdy among us, this is a novel example of the classic traveling salesman problem (TSP) in operations research. In a TSP, a salesman needs to visit "n" cities in the most efficient manner, visiting each city exactly once. TSPs are notoriously difficult to solve because the number of possible solutions (given by n!) gets very large very fast as "n" increases. Even in this relatively simple problem with n=9 "cities" there are 362,880 possible orderings of tunings. Making the assumption that you want to start in standard tuning reduces the possible orderings to 40,320.]
very cool raggamuffin. did you use a brute-force search? i want to play around with this using ruby.
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  #14  
Old 03-14-2015, 06:50 PM
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Raggamuffin Raggamuffin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jberczel View Post
very cool raggamuffin. did you use a brute-force search? i want to play around with this using ruby.
No, I set it up as an optimization problem in Excel and solved it using Solver (the optimization software that comes with Excel). Solver has an evolutionary optimization engine (essentially a genetic algorithm) that works well of these types of problems. It also has a very convenient/efficient way of constraining the cells representing decision variables to be a permutation of integers from 1 to "n" -- which is perfect for this type of problem. Of course, since "n" is relatively small in this case, a brute-force (complete enumeration) approach is very possible as well.

I actually found the most challenging part of the problem to be calculating the "distance matrix" needed to summarize how many half-step changes are required to go from tuning i to tuning j. Once I had that, Solver made the rest of it pretty easy.
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  #15  
Old 03-14-2015, 07:34 PM
Hotspur Hotspur is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaCruzOMGuy View Post

Would you mind still applying your better understanding of the best order to transition these for the sake of the guitar/strings?
I think if you're going to play in that many tunings you better be really good at retuning, but my general thought would be that you want to tune as little as possible, and tune UP rather than down as much as possible, because tuning up to a note tends to be more stable and quicker.

But I think that's probably not a great way to build a set from a musical perspective.
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