I'm beginning to think.....

fitness1 · #1 02-27-2017, 08:44 PM

that "acoustic amplification" is a contradiction of terms.

Over the last 35 years I've been through probably 10 different "generations" of PA setups. There are days when I think I sounded the best was when I was using an old Biamp Mixpack and a pair of Bag End 12's (they were really nice) with my old standby '89 Taylor 512c (w/Baggs LB6)

As my guitars have become WAY nicer, the act of amplifying them and being happy with what I hear has become more and more frustrating. I feel like not only do they sound way better acoustically, but I listen much more critically as well. I find myself thinking about the sound and not about the music as much - and as a result I've become frustrated to the point of not even wanting to perform any more. Yes, there are other reasons too, but this is the most glaring.

Any other "old timers" in this boat???

donh · #2 02-27-2017, 09:06 PM

Yup.

You heard what I did for the McJam (I think it was numbers 1 and 2) with my Acoustic Instrument Amp project.

That was my response to your present dilemma. I built my own. It works a treat, both as an instrument amp or a full PA system. But not many people have the resources to do this. Most of what is out there is horrid and crunchy and overblown and ultimately disappointing.

What needs to happen is obvious to me. Apparently not at all obvious to the major manufacturers out there . . . . . . . .

Oh-well!

fitness1 · #3 02-27-2017, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donh

What needs to happen is obvious to me. Apparently not at all obvious to the major manufacturers out there . . . . . . . .

Oh-well!

In my mind I know what would probably sound the best, but as you say, it's not out there......and certainly not for any reasonable price.

Looburst · #4 02-27-2017, 11:09 PM

Yes, I don't put any pickups in my acoustics anymore, mainly because I hate the tone and it is very unfamiliar to my acoustic guitars or me. IMO, nobody has come up with a simple solution to this issue yet. I've had all different kinds over the years and none thrilled me as much as a mic at the 10th fret. I bought a guitar that has a Baggs Lyric system in it earlier last year but I will never use it and will probably take it out. I bought the guitar for it's sound, not the pickup in it.

necrome · #5 02-28-2017, 02:08 AM

As someone who has to perform outdoors for a living, this is not such a clear-cut matter - especially since there is no choice in whether or not I am heard through speakers

What I've noticed is, the louder and more amplified the sound gets, the less I can make my acoustic guitar sound like the acoustic that it is. It definitely isn't a bad thing if you look at it a certain way, because even though the sound is different, it doesn't mean it sounds worse. Take Tommy Emmanuel's primary stage guitar for example, it sounds horrid unamplified and vastly better otherwise! I do treat it mentally and subconsciously as somewhat of a separate instrument when it has to go into the board.

My guitar has a LR Baggs Anthem Pro system on board, and realised that you have to EQ/Mic differently in every venue and circumstance and dial effects to wildly different degrees every time to sound consistent. Some days and places can be extremely difficult to work with but it's part of doing it as a job I guess!

Silly Moustache · #6 02-28-2017, 03:50 AM

Seriously, if you put electrickery (however good) into a good guitar....it becomes an electric guitar.

Nothing has yet been invented which really reflects the subtlety of an acoustic instrumet they just mimic it.

The least worst way of amplifying the soud of any acoustic instrument is through a high quality flat response microphone into a very good, flat p.a. system.

That is my humble anyway.

leew3 · #7 02-28-2017, 04:29 AM

I'm with you and most of the posts thus far. The sound of even my inexpensive condenser mics is far superior to most of the pickup systems in my guitars. The best (i.e. closest to what I hear acoustically) of the lot is the L.R. Baggs Anthem system I had put in my Larrivee L-03. However, I constantly find myself tweaking the ratio of the UST to microphone in an effort to find that 'just right' sound. I guess when I gigged 4-5 nights a week with an Alvarez and Barcus Berry hot dots I didn't know any better and perhaps that was one solution!

LSemmens · #8 02-28-2017, 05:31 AM

Looking for a decent "acoustic sound" amplified is always an issue. It would be nice to find that holy grail. The best we can do is a good mic. and great soundy.

Cuki79 · #9 02-28-2017, 06:10 AM

I think making a pickup sound like a mic is not impossible using digital treatment (see the thread about my modelling experiment). I mean I could do something that is not bad and I had no access to Doug Young's guitar. I hope Tonedexter will prove that.

However I think another problem to get an "acoustic" feeling is the amplification.

Here is a video of a simulation of the beaming of a guitar (G.Derveaux phd)

I doubt a loudspeaker in pistonic mode have the same radiation pattern. It is due to the multimode nature of a guitar top and the interferences between the different waves that radiates from these modes and from the soundhole.

So a perfect acoustic guitar amp would probably needs to use a guitar top as a diaphragm with a proper bracing and an actuator placed at a position equivalent to the bridge. I am sure this kind of amp would sound more natural in term of stereo.

Cuki

fitness1 · #10 02-28-2017, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

The least worst way of amplifying the soud of any acoustic instrument is through a high quality flat response microphone into a very good, flat p.a. system.

That is my humble anyway.

The last few gigs I did were mic only......until about the 5th or 6th time I played the same room and the crowd got much bigger (250 or so) it worked great. Trouble always starts with trying to cut through that with more subtle fingerstyle work, of course.

Even when I have used pickups, the "blend" has always been microphone dominant - I've always used a quality external condenser.

fitness1 · #11 02-28-2017, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuki79

So a perfect acoustic guitar amp would probably needs to use a guitar top as a diaphragm with a proper bracing and an actuator placed at a position equivalent to the bridge. I am sure this kind of amp would sound more natural in term of stereo.

Cuki

These were actually developed about 10 years ago or so - can't remember the name of the company. I think they were developed with classical players in mind but I can't remember for sure.

Here it is - High Cliff Soundboard amplifier - this was one of them anyway....

ghostnote · #12 02-28-2017, 06:47 AM

I don't even attempt to make an amplified acoustic sound exactly like an unamplified one. That way lies madness. I look at them as 2 different things; because they are. Just as an electric guitar doesn't sound normal until you plug it in, an acoustic doesn't sound "normal" until you unplug it. But I do love acoustics amplified - there's an entire world of great tones and fabulous sounds to be had using amplification. It's incredible what you can do with it. It's not the same sound as that guitar you first fell in love with, but rather a whole different thing. The way I see it, that gives me 2 things to love about one guitar. That's a win.

fitness1 · #13 02-28-2017, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by necrome

Take Tommy Emmanuel's primary stage guitar for example, it sounds horrid unamplified and vastly better otherwise!

Yes - I learned a long time ago that the most impressive sounding instruments acoustically aren't the best ones to amplify. Very hard to "harness" all that information. My Mcknight (smaller, brighter) is much easier to handle than my Charis (warmer, larger body) in that respect.

fitness1 · #14 02-28-2017, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghostnote

I don't even attempt to make an amplified acoustic sound exactly like an unamplified one. That way lies madness. I look at them as 2 different things; because they are. Just as an electric guitar doesn't sound normal until you plug it in, an acoustic doesn't sound "normal" until you unplug it. But I do love acoustics amplified - there's an entire world of great tones and fabulous sounds to be had using amplification. It's incredible what you can do with it. It's not the same sound as that guitar you first fell in love with, but rather a whole different thing. The way I see it, that gives me 2 things to love about one guitar. That's a win.

You have a very valid point - and have hit the nail on the head. Being "old school" this is exactly what I'm not able to accept. A good part of this for me is being a lifelong audiophile as well. I don't listen critically to anything but acoustic music, and it darn well better sound like an instrument in a studio with a mic in front of it, or the recording will be in the "sell" pile.

I just can't make that transition, but certainly commend you for doing so.

frank4001 · #15 02-28-2017, 07:25 AM

It's all about context and doing the best you can with what you have.
I had a beautiful gig at a small town square (Collierville, TN) one night and brought my D-18GE with a JJB SBT and pre-amp pedal, Deluxe Reverb.

Just two man gig. Harp/singer and me on guitar...

I asked the sound man if we could throw a mic on the guitars.
He's like "oh yea" easy.
So we get to talking and, turns out, he's an ace bluegrass picker.

Have not sounded that good since... It was fantastic.

The set up, the natural sound of the square, the big pergola and some one who gave a crap. That's all you need...see, its easy...ha ha ha