The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 02-17-2017, 08:30 PM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6,427
Default So sad, open mics in my small town shut down by ASCAP licensing

Played a open mic tonight and the Coffee House had to have it on the stage of a local nonprofit art center to avoid ASCAP licensing issues. We have a nice growing downtown with lots of small venues to play but I guess you can't do it unless you have original music. I know it's been talked about here but this is the first time I have seen it in action, just retired and thought it would be fun to play some of my old songs. The day the music died, nothing is just fun anymore. Wonder if George would have really cared that I played "Here Comes The Sun"?
__________________
Steve
2020 McKnight Grand Recording - Cedar Top
2005 McKnight SS Dred
2001 Michael Keller Koa Baby
2014 Godin Inuk
2012 Deering B6 Openback Banjo
2012 Emerald Acoustic Doubleneck
2012 Rainsong JM1000 Black Ice
2009 Wechter Pathmaker 9600 LTD
1982 Yairi D-87 Doubleneck
1987 Ovation Collectors
1993 Ovation Collectors
1967 J-45 Gibson
1974 20th Annivers. Les Paul Custom
  #2  
Old 02-17-2017, 08:49 PM
Ted @ LA Guitar Sales Ted @ LA Guitar Sales is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12,231
Default

Isn't the licensing fee just a few hundred dollars per year for a small venue?
  #3  
Old 02-17-2017, 08:53 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 6,951
Default

Composers are entitled to compensation if you play their songs at a public venue. That's the law.
  #4  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:08 PM
JohnW63 JohnW63 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,850
Default

Quote:
Isn't the licensing fee just a few hundred dollars per year for a small venue?
I think I recall , from old threads, that the amount varied by square footage and some other factor like money made during the shows. ( Live mic brought in business so they get a cut of it. ) , but I could be wrong. I suspect if it was a reasonable fee, and one that most venues could afford, this wouldn't be an issue. Since so many have shut down live mic stuff or limited it to original music, there MUST be more to it, than a few hundred bucks a year.
__________________
2010 Guild F47R
2009 G & L Tribute "Legacy"
1975 Ovation Legend
1986 Ovation 1758 12 String
2007 Walden G2070
2008 Guild D55 Prototype
1998 Guild Starfire IV
2016 Guild Newark St. X-175 Sunburst
1996 Ovation 1768-7LTD " custom "
  #5  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:09 PM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6,427
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales View Post
Isn't the licensing fee just a few hundred dollars per year for a small venue?
He quoted me $1000? I tried to look online, but it wasn't easy, their site wasn't that friendly.
__________________
Steve
2020 McKnight Grand Recording - Cedar Top
2005 McKnight SS Dred
2001 Michael Keller Koa Baby
2014 Godin Inuk
2012 Deering B6 Openback Banjo
2012 Emerald Acoustic Doubleneck
2012 Rainsong JM1000 Black Ice
2009 Wechter Pathmaker 9600 LTD
1982 Yairi D-87 Doubleneck
1987 Ovation Collectors
1993 Ovation Collectors
1967 J-45 Gibson
1974 20th Annivers. Les Paul Custom

Last edited by Doubleneck; 02-17-2017 at 09:20 PM.
  #6  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:10 PM
The Bard Rocks The Bard Rocks is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mohawk Valley
Posts: 8,709
Default ASCAP police

Yes Ted, the license fee is often just a few hundred. That's what our free summer concert series pays - for 5 concerts. I imagine most small open mike venues cannot afford that much. In my area these are all held at churches and have a zero budget, depending upon the generosity of those attending to supply food and beverages. Maybe the open mikes held at bars bring in enough extra business to justify the expense, but my bet is that most of them would give it up if confronted with the threat of a lawsuit, which ASCAP is quick to do.

Let's do some hypothetical numbers: if their take was $500 for someone holding monthly open mikes, that would be be over $40 per night. You could get that with 9 patrons paying $5 each. It sounds doable for many. Maybe someone can give us more accurate numbers.

My personal problem are with their strong arm tactics and with my suspicion that the songwriters whose songs are featured by local players, that they would receive nothing. There is no way to monitor what was played, and no attempt to do so, so I cannot see how someone who is an ASCAP member, but little known, would ever get their share. Probably someone here can give an explanation. But for me, I was so turned off by the way they did things that, as an original artist, I am unlikely to ally myself with them.

I have been told the excuse of having only public domain or original material is not good enough to stand up in court. It's good to keep in mind that legal and ethical are not the same thing, though they are often equated.
__________________
The Bard Rocks

Fay OM Sinker Redwood/Tiger Myrtle
Sexauer L00 Adk/Magnolia For Sale
Hatcher Jumbo Bearclaw/"Bacon" Padauk
Goodall Jumbo POC/flamed Mahogany
Appollonio 12 POC/Myrtle
MJ Franks Resonator, all Australian Blackwood
Goodman J45 Lutz/fiddleback Mahogany
Blackbird "Lucky 13" - carbon fiber
'31 National Duolian
+ many other stringed instruments.
  #7  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:15 PM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6,427
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
Composers are entitled to compensation if you play their songs at a public venue. That's the law.
I understand that but two points:

1. I really think the artists miss a chance to get their music out there with minimal damage. I played "Behind Blue Eyes" people were asking who did that song? Think that may interest some people to listen to The Who?

2. Might makes right, or Big Money talks, UTube seems to be able to hold its own, but a small coffee shop gets a letter, and the inability to defend themselves. It's the brave new world we live in. I remember a time when I could watch the Rose Bowl on Network TV, now you have to give a cut to ESPN. I didn't watch it this year, I cut the cable.
__________________
Steve
2020 McKnight Grand Recording - Cedar Top
2005 McKnight SS Dred
2001 Michael Keller Koa Baby
2014 Godin Inuk
2012 Deering B6 Openback Banjo
2012 Emerald Acoustic Doubleneck
2012 Rainsong JM1000 Black Ice
2009 Wechter Pathmaker 9600 LTD
1982 Yairi D-87 Doubleneck
1987 Ovation Collectors
1993 Ovation Collectors
1967 J-45 Gibson
1974 20th Annivers. Les Paul Custom

Last edited by Doubleneck; 02-17-2017 at 09:29 PM.
  #8  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:23 PM
Rmz76 Rmz76 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,946
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doubleneck View Post
Played a open mic tonight and the Coffee House had to have it on the stage of a local nonprofit art center to avoid ASCAP licensing issues. We have a nice growing downtown with lots of small venues to play but I guess you can't do it unless you have original music. I know it's been talked about here but this is the first time I have seen it in action, just retired and thought it would be fun to play some of my old songs. The day the music died, nothing is just fun anymore. Wonder if George would have really cared that I played "Here Comes The Sun"?
Many singer-songwriters who are unsigned by record labels join ASCAP, BMI and SESAC as it's a requirement even for getting paid for play on indie radio stations. If you play open mics the works you register with these organizations is covered. If I understand the BMI contract, they have the right to file a law suit against a small unlicensed venue if I go in and play my own songs.

They probably just scan the internet for venues hosting open mic's and compare them against their database of licensed venues and send out a generic cease and desist letter. They probably have a software program that does does all this without much human intervention.
__________________
Wayne


J-45 song of the day archive
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis..._Zmxz51NAwG1UJ

My music
https://soundcloud.com/waynedeats76
https://www.facebook.com/waynedeatsmusic

My guitars
Gibson, Martin, Blueridge, Alvarez, Takamine
  #9  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:37 PM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6,427
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rmz76 View Post
Many singer-songwriters who are unsigned by record labels join ASCAP, BMI and SESAC as it's a requirement even for getting paid for play on indie radio stations. If you play open mics the works you register with these organizations is covered. If I understand the BMI contract, they have the right to file a law suit against a small unlicensed venue if I go in and play my own songs.

They probably just scan the internet for venues hosting open mic's and compare them against their database of licensed venues and send out a generic cease and desist letter. They probably have a software program that does does all this without much human intervention.
I am sure you are right. The best avenue in a small town is to stay off the grid. Advertise by posters, flyiers, and word of mouth. We are our own worse enemy, we rely on the internet for our total communications. Stay off the grid and they would never find you. But I'm not running a business that's trying to keep above water.
__________________
Steve
2020 McKnight Grand Recording - Cedar Top
2005 McKnight SS Dred
2001 Michael Keller Koa Baby
2014 Godin Inuk
2012 Deering B6 Openback Banjo
2012 Emerald Acoustic Doubleneck
2012 Rainsong JM1000 Black Ice
2009 Wechter Pathmaker 9600 LTD
1982 Yairi D-87 Doubleneck
1987 Ovation Collectors
1993 Ovation Collectors
1967 J-45 Gibson
1974 20th Annivers. Les Paul Custom
  #10  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:41 PM
RustyAxe RustyAxe is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,312
Default

Fees are usually around $1500/year for a small venue, according to venue owners I know and speak to. That's ASCAP ... then you have to pay BMI and SESAC. Let's say $4500/year. That comes out of the profit, so if we use a generous figure of 30% profit, those open mics would have to generate $15,000/year in gross revenue (above what they'd do if they didn't have music). That's a problem for many small coffee shops, wineries, cafes, and such.

If anyone thinks that the music played at a small town cafe is taking food out of the mouths of the songwriter they are delusional. The songwriter doesn't even get paid unless the performers or venues file a complete setlist with the PRO of every song played every night. That doesn't happen either. And when they do get paid, it's in rolls of pennies.
  #11  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:41 PM
DavidE DavidE is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 4,106
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doubleneck View Post
Played a open mic tonight and the Coffee House had to have it on the stage of a local nonprofit art center to avoid ASCAP licensing issues. We have a nice growing downtown with lots of small venues to play but I guess you can't do it unless you have original music. I know it's been talked about here but this is the first time I have seen it in action, just retired and thought it would be fun to play some of my old songs. The day the music died, nothing is just fun anymore. Wonder if George would have really cared that I played "Here Comes The Sun"?
The problem is the club not paying the fees but using live music for commercial profit.
  #12  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:43 PM
upsidedown upsidedown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 2,618
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdelsolray View Post
Composers are entitled to compensation if you play their songs at a public venue. That's the law.
Most of the composers being compensated (or increasingly NOT being compensated) for the use of their songs, had the luxury to play in a time when venues were not subject to ASCAP or BMI fees. Therefore, they were able to learn to play, write, compose...

Where would the Beatles - and everyone who followed - be if ASCAP/BMI were monitoring the Woolton Fete, the Kaiserkeller and the Cavern Club?
  #13  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:45 PM
DavidE DavidE is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 4,106
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnW63 View Post
I think I recall , from old threads, that the amount varied by square footage and some other factor like money made during the shows. ( Live mic brought in business so they get a cut of it. ) , but I could be wrong. I suspect if it was a reasonable fee, and one that most venues could afford, this wouldn't be an issue. Since so many have shut down live mic stuff or limited it to original music, there MUST be more to it, than a few hundred bucks a year.
It's done by occupancy and the number of nights when live music is performed. At least that's how BMI does it.
  #14  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:47 PM
DavidE DavidE is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 4,106
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rmz76 View Post
Many singer-songwriters who are unsigned by record labels join ASCAP, BMI and SESAC as it's a requirement even for getting paid for play on indie radio stations. If you play open mics the works you register with these organizations is covered. If I understand the BMI contract, they have the right to file a law suit against a small unlicensed venue if I go in and play my own songs.

They probably just scan the internet for venues hosting open mic's and compare them against their database of licensed venues and send out a generic cease and desist letter. They probably have a software program that does does all this without much human intervention.
Q: Does a business need a BMI License if they only play original music?

The term “original music” generally means musical works written by the performing musicians. That doesn’t mean, however, that the musicians are not affiliated with BMI. This is because licensing organizations like BMI are the vehicles through which songwriters and composers are compensated for the public performances of their music. In addition, one of the purposes of BMI is to help foster the development of up-and-coming songwriters, many of whom perform in public areas and establishments. Many times, these performers are asked to play a song known by the general public that was written by someone else to add to the entertainment. This performance also requires permission.
  #15  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:50 PM
DavidE DavidE is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 4,106
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks View Post
Yes Ted, the license fee is often just a few hundred. That's what our free summer concert series pays - for 5 concerts. I imagine most small open mike venues cannot afford that much. In my area these are all held at churches and have a zero budget, depending upon the generosity of those attending to supply food and beverages. Maybe the open mikes held at bars bring in enough extra business to justify the expense, but my bet is that most of them would give it up if confronted with the threat of a lawsuit, which ASCAP is quick to do.

Let's do some hypothetical numbers: if their take was $500 for someone holding monthly open mikes, that would be be over $40 per night. You could get that with 9 patrons paying $5 each. It sounds doable for many. Maybe someone can give us more accurate numbers.

My personal problem are with their strong arm tactics and with my suspicion that the songwriters whose songs are featured by local players, that they would receive nothing. There is no way to monitor what was played, and no attempt to do so, so I cannot see how someone who is an ASCAP member, but little known, would ever get their share. Probably someone here can give an explanation. But for me, I was so turned off by the way they did things that, as an original artist, I am unlikely to ally myself with them.

I have been told the excuse of having only public domain or original material is not good enough to stand up in court. It's good to keep in mind that legal and ethical are not the same thing, though they are often equated.
They are not "quick" to sue. Suit is filed only after extensive efforts are made to have the venue comply. Numerous letters and phone calls. In order to file suit, the licensing company pays someone to go to the club for an evening and write down every song played. The licensing agency then determines how many of the songs are covered under their agency and if none, then suit is not filed. Of course it's rare that none are played.
Closed Thread

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=