Non Tapered Bridge Pin Holes

Martin has not tapered holes on regular production guitars for the last 15 years or so. Only the Authentics and a few Custom Shop guitars use tapered bridge pin holes now. They don't taper the end pin hole either.

It is possible to find used guitars with tapered holes and well fitted pins, mine for example, but that work was done on my bench, not Martin's.

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

Martin has not tapered holes on regular production guitars for the last 15 years or so. Only the Authentics and a few Custom Shop guitars use tapered bridge pin holes now. They don't taper the end pin hole either.

It is possible to find used guitars with tapered holes and well fitted pins, mine for example, but that work was done on my bench, not Martin's.

Incorrect, as my 2016 D-42, 2006 D12-28 and 1998 HD-28 all have tapered holes.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

Incorrect, as my 2016 D-42, 2006 D12-28 and 1998 HD-28 all have tapered holes.

The question arises as to whether you bought these guitars new, or pre-owned.
There are thousands of Martins whose owners have reamed the bridgepin holes themselves, or had a tech do it for them.

We know that the 2016 D-42 has tapered holes, because you tapered them yourself , as mentioned in your OP.

I had to slightly ream out the holes so each pin fit nice and snug with the same height.

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

The question arises as to whether you bought these guitars new, or pre-owned.
There are thousands of Martins whose owners have reamed the bridgepin holes themselves, or had a tech do it for them.

We know that the 2016 D-42 has tapered holes, because you tapered them yourself , as mentioned in your OP.

All my guitars were bought new. I had to use a taper only to get the Waverly pins to sit lower, as Martin pins are a smaller diameter. My results and findings stand.

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

Incorrect, as my 2016 D-42, 2006 D12-28 and 1998 HD-28 all have tapered holes.

I thought the truth might be helpful to others.

Your '98 might be old enough to have had tapered bridge pin holes. The others are not.

FWIW, I go to the Martin factory somewhat regularly. I've seen the bridges being manufactured, and I know the people who install them. The holes are not tapered now and have not been for many years. That is how they leave Nazareth.

And I have seen and measured the straight holes for myself. Many qualified repairmen have observed the same. Again though, don't let the truth be your guide. What kind world would we have if everyone did that?

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

I thought the truth might be helpful to others.

Your '98 might be old enough to have had tapered bridge pin holes. The others are not.

FWIW, I go to the Martin factory somewhat regularly. I've seen the bridges being manufactured, and I know the people who install them. The holes are not tapered now and have not been for many years. That is how they leave Nazareth.

And I have seen and measured the straight holes for myself. Many qualified repairmen have observed the same. Again though, don't let the truth be your guide. What kind world would we have if everyone did that?

Really, because I like the truth, that is why I make no assumptions and base my posts on science, logic and reason. The holes on my 2016 D-42, 2006 D12-28 and 1998 HD-28 are all tapered. I don't know how you can make a judgment on my posting history when you apparently did not read my post this morning about the measurements of the taper.

[Ned Milburn]

Guys, it seems like you're all having fun on this thread... ;-)

VP, your own words belie that you are holding to your facts "from someone at Martin", even when other people's evidence and experience goes against this. This has to do with you, not with the "someone" at Martin. Hence, you experienced "push back" or whatever you want to call it.

One person who works at Martin is not necessarily the be-all-and-end-all in Martin manufacturing specs. Again, it was YOU (not the person at Martin) who repeated your "facts" even after others pointed out it was incorrect.

FWIW, I can add this... Except for different mass of bridge pin material, I do not believe there can be any audible difference in the sound of the guitar due to bridge pin fitting (except in the most heinous of cases). However, there is a concept called "psycho-acoustics" - when we believe to hear something based upon our belief that there SHOULD be a difference, rather than based upon our empirical sensing of the sound.

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by Ned Milburn

Guys, it seems like you're all having fun on this thread... ;-)

VP, your own words belie that you are holding to your facts "from someone at Martin", even when other people's evidence and experience goes against this. This has to do with you, not with the "someone" at Martin. Hence, you experienced "push back" or whatever you want to call it.

One person who works at Martin is not necessarily the be-all-and-end-all in Martin manufacturing specs. Again, it was YOU (not the person at Martin) who repeated your "facts" even after others pointed out it was incorrect.

FWIW, I can add this... Except for different mass of bridge pin material, I do not believe there can be any audible difference in the sound of the guitar due to bridge pin fitting (except in the most heinous of cases). However, there is a concept called "psycho-acoustics" - when we believe to hear something based upon our belief that there SHOULD be a difference, rather than based upon our empirical sensing of the sound.

Here are some facts: My 2016 D-42 has tapered pins holes, My 2006 D12-28 has tapered pins holes, My 1998 HD-28 has tapered pins holes, my friend's 2016 D Custom has tapered pin holes. My new Gibson Western Classic, 1938 SJ-200, J-45 Custom and Southern Jumbo all do indeed have an "empirical" improvement in the sound, I am always aware of preconceived ideas and beliefs and make sure they do not interfere with what I am experiencing. What I claim has indeed happened. Maybe I can explain it for you. With the large straight hole of the factory Gibsons, the ball end of the string wants to push its way off of the bridge plate a bit as the pin wants to push back against the back of the hole. This can be seen as the top of the pins were all slightly tilted forward towards the saddle. Therefore the ball end is not anchored fully on the bridge plate as some of it is allowed to move back against the loose pin. Because of this there is not maximum sound transfer from ball end to bridge plate. If there is a tight fit of a tapered pin with a tapered hole most of the ball end is forced onto the bridge plate for maximum volume, tone, clarity and other sonic goodness. Why is it that the "old school" way of non-slotted pins and a slotted hole and bridge plate is the preferred way for many luthiers and guitarists? Because it sounds the best for the same reasons as my modification. I find it so funny that most of my posts here has been met with the same kind of negative response. If you don't believe it nor can disprove it otherwise it is fine by me, I am absolutely ecstatic with the sound of my new Gibsons.

PS: My original motive to do any of this was to simply make the pins sit up higher in my SJ-200 and Western Classic. I had assumed the holes were already tapered. So I had no preconceived idea that there would be any improvement to the sound. The obvious and actual improvement to the sound was immediately noticed as I played the Western Classic. So no, there were no "psycho-acoustics" involved here in the least.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by Victory Pete

Why is it that the "old school" way of non-slotted pins and a slotted hole and bridge plate is the preferred way for many luthiers and guitarists? Because it sounds the best for the same reasons as my modification.

Non slotted pins with slotted pin holes works best because it has the most longevity of the bridge plate, plus it tends (when done right) to be MUCH easier to change strings and fit the pins.

After working on and playing hundreds of instruments, I personally don't think there is any difference in tone between slotted and non-slotted pin holes. But it's not something I feel any need to argue, since it is rather insignificant in the whole scheme of things.

If you noticed an improvement with your guitars' tones - whether it is simply "perceived" or if it is real - then that is good.

Food for thought... Since you yourself mention there is a lot of negativity expressed towards your posts, could it not be true that the way you express yourself causes people to respond "negatively"...??

Most important is that you are happy with your instruments, and that you are peaceful in spirit.

Take care!! Be happy! ;-)

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by Ned Milburn

Non slotted pins with slotted pin holes works best because it has the most longevity of the bridge plate, plus it tends (when done right) to be MUCH easier to change strings and fit the pins.

After working on and playing hundreds of instruments, I personally don't think there is any difference in tone between slotted and non-slotted pin holes. But it's not something I feel any need to argue, since it is rather insignificant in the whole scheme of things.

If you noticed an improvement with your guitars' tones - whether it is simply "perceived" or if it is real - then that is good.

Food for thought... Since you yourself mention there is a lot of negativity expressed towards your posts, could it not be true that the way you express yourself causes people to respond "negatively"...??

Most important is that you are happy with your instruments, and that you are peaceful in spirit.

Take care!! Be happy! ;-)

I express myself with facts that pertain to my findings, experiences and observations. If any of that results in negative responses I certainly do not think it is justified without the same facts that pertain to their findings, experiences and observations.

[John Arnold]

After 32 years in the repair business, here is my take on the subject.
Martin has certainly been inconsistent in fitting bridge pins in recent times. I cannot count the number of Martins where I taper reamed the holes to make the pins fit properly. I do know that the ill-fitting pins started when Martin stopped slotting the holes in the 1980's.
I have noticed an improvement in sound when the pins are made to fit properly........though I will admit that it usually entails slotting the bridge and installing unslotted pins. I recommend that to most all customers....especially those who are tired of dealing with bent, chewed-up slotted thermoplastic pins that only serve to damage bridgeplates.

[Victory Pete]

After doing some more careful measuring and analyzing, I have come to the conclusion that the 4 Martins have a 3 degree taper. I am waiting for a confirmation from Martin. When I added the new larger Waverly pins I did have to do some reaming with my 5 degree reamer so the pins would drop further in. So I wonder if I did enough reaming to change the entire slot to the proper 5 degree taper to match the Waverly pins. I may do the glue mod to guarantee this. I determined the taper for finding the angle by using tangent. .213" and .192' were the approximate measurements of the ends of the tapered hole. Using some trig and tangent I came up with 3 degrees. Also when a 5 degree pin is inserted there was a slight wiggle. So there you have it.

[redir]

I'm having a hard time coming up with a solution in my mind as to how a tapered pin hole would make a guitar sound better. They should be tapered of course, and really how hard is that to do, 3 minutes with a reamer and you are done, but for reasons other than tone. Perhaps someone can clue me in with a good technical reason as to why? The keyhole slots are...Key. That's for sure. Locking the ball end up nice and tight to the bridge plate.

[Victory Pete]

Originally Posted by redir

I'm having a hard time coming up with a solution in my mind as to how a tapered pin hole would make a guitar sound better. They should be tapered of course, and really how hard is that to do, 3 minutes with a reamer and you are done, but for reasons other than tone. Perhaps someone can clue me in with a good technical reason as to why? The keyhole slots are...Key. That's for sure. Locking the ball end up nice and tight to the bridge plate.

Tapered pins and tapered holes that fit perfectly fill all the voids and push the ball end as far forward as possible on the bridge plate. This provides maximum vibrational energy of all the frequencies produced by the strings resulting in a full tonal response which is what I consider to be good tone. Also the taper acts as a wedge to keep everything that much tighter.

Martin hasn't used a 3 degree taper since 1930.