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Old 02-15-2017, 09:31 AM
Bogios Bogios is offline
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Question D-28 - set up?

Hi - wondering if any of you guys could help me please

I have a Martin D-28 that is roughly 10 years old. It's well looked after, strings changed on a regular basis and played every day. Recently I noticed that something seemed very slightly off in the tuning where it seemed in tune but when I started playing it just sounded "out" slightly.

I took it to an experienced guy at my local music shop and he said that I hadn't stretched the strings in properly (they were quite new) and true enough when he stretched them it went out of tune considerably and after tuning back to pitch and repeating a few times it's massively improved. I just can't help feeling there's something not quite right but it could well be my imagination.

I had a set up done on it shortly after I got it to lower the action slightly but nothing since then. Is it something that I should be taking it to a tech each year or two, or is there a general rule of thumb?

There is slight fret-wear on the first couple of frets where there are a couple of divots from the strings. Is that normal and when does that become an issue that should be looked at?
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Old 02-15-2017, 09:50 AM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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True about strings stretching.

If a guitar is properly set up and kept in a controlled humidity, it should require very little regular setup work other than possible a truss rod tweak as/if necessary.

The main maintenance I'd recommend is clean and oil (lem oil is my choice - dunlop 65) the fingerboard during string changes. Keep humidity levels correct. Once frets wear to the point of causing undue buzzing, then fretwork is warranted.

Guitars do not play in tune. They are well tempered at best, and perhaps you are noticing the difference between well or even tempered tuning versus natural tuning. For example, I can clearly hear that the B note is sharp on a G chord, or the G# is sharp on an E chord when compared to natural tempered tuning.
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Old 02-15-2017, 09:55 AM
Bogios Bogios is offline
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Thanks for the reply Ned - much appreciated.

I think you're right. My not stretching the strings has just got it stuck in my head that something is a-miss and I'm being over sensitive maybe.

Funny you mention the humidity - I have had the guitar hanging on my wall for a good few months, but a couple of nights ago I put it in the case with a humidifier and the next time I took it out I could have sworn it felt and sounded better.

I'm from the UK so the weather isn't really extreme or anything, but would me doing this have had an effect do you think?
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:03 AM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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I'm in Nova Scotia. July is REALLY humid for 2 or 3 weeks. Then, depending upon the house, dehumidifiers can be useful. During heating season and mid-winter, humidity goes way down, so humidification is usually necessary.

Here is an article I wrote with more details on humidification:

http://www.handcraftedguitars.ca/201...9/guitar-care/
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:10 AM
Bogios Bogios is offline
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Thanks Ned - Will have a read of this now!
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Old 02-15-2017, 11:42 AM
Mr Fingers Mr Fingers is offline
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OP: Are you talking about being out of tune, or about matters of action and tone? As for tuning, the string stretching routine is really helpful, but do it carefully and well, as it is easy to just yank a bit and end up with unbalanced and prematurely dead strings. If you think you hear other intonation problems, better use a tuner and check. It's extremely unlikely for a Martin to be off (no guitar is perfect) but you never know. As for regular maintenance -- conditioning the fretboard, cleaning, etc. -- that info is everywhere and should not be a big deal. As for humidity: When I lived in New England, in a humid (non-dehumidified) house, every summer was "dead guitar" season. It was really bad; everything just sounded tubby.
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Old 02-15-2017, 12:36 PM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Fingers View Post
As for humidity: When I lived in New England, in a humid (non-dehumidified) house, every summer was "dead guitar" season. It was really bad; everything just sounded tubby.
Times like that, you'd want to use a silica pack dehumidifier in the case with the guitar. Cheap and can last your guitar's lifetime.
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:10 PM
John Arnold John Arnold is offline
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Fret wear will cause intonation problems. Depending on the depth of the divots, the frets can either be leveled and recrowned, or replaced. Leveling the frets lowers them, so the nut will need to be lowered a similar amount.
Also, the nut slots and the saddle should be checked for wear. That can cause intonation problems as well.
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Old 02-19-2017, 07:59 AM
adlerburg adlerburg is offline
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Being a player for (OMG...)50 years ... professionally for 30+, I can say for certain that string stretching is not only unnecessary, but have more negative aspects than positive. This is from many years, many guitars... acoustic/electric etc of experience and changing strings (every gig) uncountable times. 1st off, let me say that you should NEVER stretch round core strings, as I've ruined them just by note bending a whole + tone. By stretching the strings, you (have a good) chance of dislodging the core from the wrap. Even hexagon core (most common) strings have a good chance of slipping core from wrap if stretched to far.... how far is that? Dunno, but I've experienced it and seen it with others many times,
So, I change the strings (one off, one on) and bring them up to tuned pitch and play. Of course it goes out of tune quite easily, but after the 1st 1/2 hour of play, it's pretty solid in tune and stretched naturally. After the 1st hour of play... all done! Stretched naturally, and the risk of a ruined string due to stretching is exceedingly diminished. You say that an hour is too long to wait? Well, I hate the way my strings sound anyway during the 1st hour... so the hour of playing not only stretches them naturally, but also plays out the jangles, and gets you ready for a week of peak string sound!
This is not religion here.. if you believe that stretching your strings are the right thing to do... stretch away, I'm just giving an experienced point of view... try not stretching, and playing them in... they will surprise you the limited amount of time it'll take to solidify.... Point being, stretching your new strings is NOT needed, and will be done naturally with play.. and safer.
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Old 02-19-2017, 08:42 AM
Hot Vibrato Hot Vibrato is offline
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It's not unusual for the action to change somewhat over time, especially with newer guitars. It has probably gotten a little higher since its last setup. If you've never had any fret work, and you play daily, then look no further as to the cause of your intonation problems. It's time for a fret dress or a partial refret.

If you care about being in tune, then string stretching is absolutely necessary. Folks who say it ruins the strings are doing it wrong. If you just gently pull the slack out of the strings until their pitch stabilizes, then no harm will come to your strings. FWIW round core (DR) strings are awful and should be avoided.
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  #11  
Old 02-21-2017, 12:24 AM
Frank Ford Frank Ford is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adlerburg View Post
. . .I can say for certain that string stretching is not only unnecessary, but have more negative aspects than positive. . .

Absolutely correct. Grabbing and pulling on the strings to pre-stretch them can cause deformation in the unwound strings especially, and the cores of the wound ones as well. The result can be an uneven thinning of the string in one area with the consequence of an inappropriate distribution of mass when fretted. That's not to mention the potential for loosening the wrap on wound strings.

This is an especially well known phenom with nylon strings, and a "classic no-no" for those who are sensitive to intonation discrepancy.

That said, it is at worst a minor problem with steel strings comparatively.

A potential benefit in stretching newly installed strings is to seat them firmly up against the bridge plate if they tend to hang up in the bridge pin holes - a not uncommon problem with some guitars.

So, rather than stretching them like crazy, I suggest being careful with the installation at the birdge to avoid the "necessity."
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Last edited by Frank Ford; 02-21-2017 at 11:16 AM.
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  #12  
Old 02-23-2017, 07:11 AM
karlitofingers karlitofingers is offline
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The advice for NOT stretching strings above is valid, but....when you have to get a string on very quickly and have it play in tune it is a must, but....care must be taken. I gently move the string around along the full length between thumb and forefinger, 2 rounds of that and the string will stay 95% in tune. Not sure if this has been mentioned above, but you must make sure the nut slots are not trapping the strings and stopping them from moving freely through as you bend and move the string around in normal use. So many times I see people have gone for a heavier gauge set of strings and the nut slots are not big enough and the neck has not been adjust to account for extra tension. A good tech should always check the nut slots for this problem.


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  #13  
Old 02-23-2017, 09:38 PM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adlerburg View Post
Being a player for (OMG...)50 years ... professionally for 30+, I can say for certain that string stretching is not only unnecessary, but have more negative aspects than positive. This is from many years, many guitars... acoustic/electric etc of experience and changing strings (every gig) uncountable times. 1st off, let me say that you should NEVER stretch round core strings, as I've ruined them just by note bending a whole + tone. By stretching the strings, you (have a good) chance of dislodging the core from the wrap. Even hexagon core (most common) strings have a good chance of slipping core from wrap if stretched to far.... how far is that? Dunno, but I've experienced it and seen it with others many times,
So, I change the strings (one off, one on) and bring them up to tuned pitch and play. Of course it goes out of tune quite easily, but after the 1st 1/2 hour of play, it's pretty solid in tune and stretched naturally. After the 1st hour of play... all done! Stretched naturally, and the risk of a ruined string due to stretching is exceedingly diminished. You say that an hour is too long to wait? Well, I hate the way my strings sound anyway during the 1st hour... so the hour of playing not only stretches them naturally, but also plays out the jangles, and gets you ready for a week of peak string sound!
This is not religion here.. if you believe that stretching your strings are the right thing to do... stretch away, I'm just giving an experienced point of view... try not stretching, and playing them in... they will surprise you the limited amount of time it'll take to solidify.... Point being, stretching your new strings is NOT needed, and will be done naturally with play.. and safer.
FWIW, I can say for certain that people should be careful "saying for certain".

Your point that Frank echoes is valid, but if strings are stretched carefully and consistently, there shouldn't be a problem.

For a classical guitar, the difference is from up to a week to stop stretching to a day. For a steel string guitar, the difference can be from 2 or 3 days to nearly zero minutes.

I have rarely - VERY rarely - encountered strings that have wrap separation troubles due to string stretching by hand, and these strings may very well have exhibited troubles without the hand-stretching.

36 years of guitar and thousands of stretches strings later...

Take it FWIW...
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  #14  
Old 02-24-2017, 08:28 AM
Hot Vibrato Hot Vibrato is offline
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I get the point that overstretching strings can damage the string, but I contend that it's absolutely necessary to make sure that there is no slack at the bridge end of the string, and that the strings are tightly wrapped around the tuning post. To achieve this, I pull gently on the string until it stabilizes. I call the process "stretching", and I'm certain that the process causes no damage to the strings. I don't of know any other way to ensure that the guitar will stay in tune, other than just letting it settle in over time. I've got a lot of guitars to fix, and I don't have time to sit around and wait. I need to know for a fact that a guitar I've worked on will hold tune, and nothing is more embarrassing to me than handing a guitar to a customer and hearing it go out of tune.
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  #15  
Old 02-25-2017, 01:53 AM
moon moon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogios View Post
There is slight fret-wear on the first couple of frets where there are a couple of divots from the strings. Is that normal and when does that become an issue that should be looked at?
Certainly when you can see divots And probably before that. When fret tops start to flatten with wear that could change the way the guitar intonates even before obvious grooves develop.
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