Shelves and brackets - input please

[amyFB]

I think that shelf brackets are supposed to be the same depth as the shelf they are supporting.

I am interested to know if anyone has experience or knowledge about when, if ever, a bracket could be less than the shelf depth.

It makes sense to me that the unsupported portion of the shelf risks bending or cracking from a heavy object.

In my case the shelf is solid wood, rock maple - a fat 1” thick - and the brackets are able to be cut from more of the same wood stock. It’s a 12” deep slab, with brackets planned at approx 3’ intervals and screwed into studs.

For Esthetic reasons , I would like the smallest brackets possible, but for long term reliable use , I want the correct size bracket.

What do you guys who build stuff think about the idea of using a bracket shallower than the shelf? And if you think smaller is ok, where’s the cutoff?

I am looking at 4” x 9” wedges that just seem awfully petite; plan being for the short side on the shelf and the long side against the wall.

If advisable, there is both time and material to cut a new set.

Thanks in advance for your ideas and thoughts!

Amyfb

[fazool]

So, the answer is that there is no single answer.

It's a combination of aesthetics wants and structural needs.

You mention your petite triangular supports - those might be just fine for bric-a-brac but not beefy enough to support an entire encyclopedia set.

Generally speaking, brackets are usually just shorter than the width of the shelf. They don't have to support the whole thing. The shelf is not at risk of breaking, but from tipping if there isn't enough under it.

It also depends if you are setting the shelf on the bracket or actually fastening it down (screwing) the shelf into the bracket from up above, for example. If you fasten the shelf to the bracket, then the fastener will carry the load and the shelf won't tip over.

So, there are lots and lots of considerations and there is no one standard way. But, generally speaking, the shelf should overhang the bracket a bit.

I have something similar to yours. Not a rustic design but a wooden bracket. I have a train shelf around my ceiling. I can't remember but the shelf is 7 or 8 inches wide and the wooden brackets (similar to yours) are 4 or 5 inches supporting the shelf.

[MikeBmusic]

Yeah, what are you planning on putting on those shelves, and how are you attaching shelves to the brackets? 1" rock maple is fairly heavy. It's weight alone is going to put some stress on whatever fasteners are holding it to the brackets

[Wengr]

Can you route a shallow channel on the underside of the shelves, and on the backside of the wood brackets in order to mask a standard metal angle bracket? If so it would contribute to support, and only be visible when looking up from underneath the shelf.

[amyFB]

Originally Posted by MikeBmusic

Yeah, what are you planning on putting on those shelves, and how are you attaching shelves to the brackets? 1" rock maple is fairly heavy. It's weight alone is going to put some stress on whatever fasteners are holding it to the brackets

Bracket will attach with Screws into studs and into the shelf.

Today’s load may not be next year’s load and while it isn’t much more than Knick knacks and a microwave oven right now, I am desiring to have flexibility in how I might use it in the future.

I am leaning to an 8” x 8” bracket instead , so that only 4” is unsupported.

I could go to 10” but would prefer not.

The “bulk” of the bracket could interfere somewhat with how the counter space underneath is utilized.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by amyFB

I think that shelf brackets are supposed to be the same depth as the shelf they are supporting.

I am interested to know if anyone has experience or knowledge about when, if ever, a bracket could be less than the shelf depth.

It makes sense to me that the unsupported portion of the shelf risks bending or cracking from a heavy object.

In my case the shelf is solid wood, rock maple - a fat 1” thick - and the brackets are able to be cut from more of the same wood stock. It’s a 12” deep slab, with brackets planned at approx 3’ intervals and screwed into studs.

For Esthetic reasons , I would like the smallest brackets possible, but for long term reliable use , I want the correct size bracket.

What do you guys who build stuff think about the idea of using a bracket shallower than the shelf? And if you think smaller is ok, where’s the cutoff?

I am looking at 4” x 9” wedges that just seem awfully petite; plan being for the short side on the shelf and the long side against the wall.

If advisable, there is both time and material to cut a new set.

Thanks in advance for your ideas and thoughts!

Amyfb

If I am understanding correctly a 12" shelf with 9" brackets leaves 3" unsupported, where an 8" bracket will leave 4" unsupported ?? and 3 or 4 inches unsupported should be fine. That said the brackets pictured to my mind ( and I tend to overbuild) might want to be longer on the wall attachment cut ,in other words get the angle closer to a 45 degree cut which would provide more structural support, than the shallow angle in the picture (especially if you want to stay with the 3 ft span. And if there is the possibility of more weight, as opposed to less weight) I would also consider shorter span lengths .

Note: I am not sure I know what you mean by 8" by 8", but if you mean a square ? Then that is actually a disadvantage. The strongest free standing shelf bracket is a 45 degree triangle, any wood protruding beyond the wall on the bottom of bracket is basically dead weight, unnecessary and counterproductive.

Note: solid wood shelves can be prone to cracking (depending on a number of factors) regardless and unrelated to support.

Also the attachment to the stud is the structural attachment , the attachment of the shelf to the bracket is not structural, so any screw that keeps it from moving laterally will be fine

[ManyMartinMan]

Look at most kitchen counters. They are very cantilevered. I'm no architect but I have gorgeous wooden shelves that have probably a 40% overhang. If you have those lovely wedges secured to the wall and you secure the back edge of the shelve screwed to the support wedges, to support the shelf in case someone leans on it or places something heavy too close to the edge, you'll be fine. Countersink and fill the screw holes and they will not be visible. No danger or hazards.

[RP]

Somewhat irrelevant to the question, but out of curiosity, how deep is the microwave that you'll be putting on the shelf??? There's obviously a big difference between the shelving needs of your average chotskes and a microwave oven....

[amyFB]

Originally Posted by RP

Somewhat irrelevant to the question, but out of curiosity, how deep is the microwave that you'll be putting on the shelf??? There's obviously a big difference between the shelving needs of your average chotskes and a microwave oven....

i think that is completely relevant question about the microwave! it's not heavy - under 10# is my guess - I can easily lift and carry it.

The other poster that mentioned about wood having a tendency to crack - yes, this too I've considered and am taking the chance anyhow. I've got some other stuff made from the lumber I got from this tree, and it's served me quite well over time. Putting a couple coats of poly on it and I think (based on nothing but my own thoughts) that poly helps to minimize cracking risk.

and the other other poster who questioned the 8" dimensions: they are for a triangle - 8" on the shelf and 8 on the wall.

appreciate all the input guys!

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by Wengr

Can you route a shallow channel on the underside of the shelves, and on the backside of the wood brackets in order to mask a standard metal angle bracket? If so it would contribute to support, and only be visible when looking up from underneath the shelf.

On the right lines, but even better would be to have brackets fabricated out of 1 1/2" x 1/2" mild steel flat bar, and raggle the drywall in front of the studs so that the bracket verticals sit flush, with the drywall. The horizontals should be screwed into routed stopped dados on the underside of the shelf. When I say "fabricated", all that it entails is having a blacksmith or a machine shop bend a length of the aforesaid flat bar to a right angle, and drilling a few countersunk holes to accept the screws.

This would enable you to tile the wall between the underside of the shelf and the counter top, or alternatively to fit a back splash of whatever material you wanted.

A far neater job than having wedge-shaped maple brackets interfering with the workspace underneath the shelf IMO. And I am speaking from experience of having actually done this on timber framed walls.

[Mr Fixit eh]

Did I miss how the brackets would be attached to the wall? The 1" shelf will be very strong (although will probably sag a bit over a 3 foot span). I'd be concerned about the 1" stock in the bracket splitting if you're driving screws from the sides into the wall studs - to get the screw to seat into the studs, you'll have to angle them abruptly and there will only be a small purchase on the bracket. This concern would escalate, the shallower the angle of the bracket and your photos appear to be substantially less than 45 degrees.

I would consider using brackets with 45 degree angle and I would think 8" supporting a 12" board would be just fine. I would recommend going to a thicker bracket material, like 1 1/2", if you can, so you get the screws more solidly into the studs.

You'll have to post up some photos when you get the project complete - I'm sure it will look great!

Steve

[rogthefrog]

Do the shelves need to be solid wood?

Cabinets (even expensive ones) often use high-quality ply for their shelving because it is more stable and will not crack under load. It's possible to get super nice Baltic birch ply with very good quality maple veneer (made of actual maple). Then you could safely use brackets that are less deep than the shelves, though I wouldn't use brackets much shorter than about 3/4 of the shelf depth.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by amyFB

i think that is completely relevant question about the microwave! it's not heavy - under 10# is my guess - I can easily lift and carry it.

The other poster that mentioned about wood having a tendency to crack - yes, this too I've considered and am taking the chance anyhow. I've got some other stuff made from the lumber I got from this tree, and it's served me quite well over time. Putting a couple coats of poly on it and I think (based on nothing but my own thoughts) that poly helps to minimize cracking risk.

and the other other poster who questioned the 8" dimensions: they are for a triangle - 8" on the shelf and 8 on the wall. ā
appreciate all the input guys!

Ah ok that would be the 45 degree I mentioned and optimum structural support.....and yes a coat of poly will help greatly in preventing cracking and warping

[BrunoBlack]

If it were me, I would try to extend the bracket out to within 2-3 inches from the edge if possible. The spacing between brackets is important too. Here’s a detail I used in my house for a different application, but I’ve used it for shelving like the ones you are building. The 1x surround trim extends the effective bracket size and makes fastening to surfaces easier.

[amyFB]

Interestingly the attachment method (done since my last post) is by way of a screw in a counter sunk hole directly through the shelf into the stud - at every stud along the entire length.

Maybe all along I was incorrect to think the brackets had the job of holding the shelf against the wall. Rather I think they act more to prevent sag .

Overall my objective for a shelf in that space is accomplished.

Project half done , photos soon

I