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  #1  
Old 09-15-2014, 01:16 PM
markm2553 markm2553 is offline
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Default Legality?

We play a volunteer gig once a month at a local nursing home.

We have kicked around the idea of making a recording with a few songs and a couple of jokes on it to give out at Christmas to the residents.

Its not a big place and it wouldn't cost us much to make enough for everyone. We would be giving them away.

If no profit was to be made, would we have any royalties to consider to the song writers?

Thanks,
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Old 09-16-2014, 06:56 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Your exposure is probably pretty small, but you're still violating a copyright;
stealing someone else's intellectual property.
You can't give away something you don't own.
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Old 09-16-2014, 07:03 AM
HHP HHP is offline
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An attorney could clarify but I recall there being different tiers to permission to use. You would need separate permissions from the controlling artist to perform and to record. Several years ago, I had contact with some of Dave Grisman's people to get performance permission for a couple of his tunes. They gave it to us and also said they would issue permissions should we want to record.
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Old 09-16-2014, 08:19 AM
MikeBmusic MikeBmusic is offline
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Legally, if you are performing cover songs at a business, they are supposed to have licenses from the PROs. I've never heard of the BMI 'black hats' going after nursing homes, though.
I think at the scale you are contemplating doing, no one's going to come hunting for you. Put "promotional copy only" "do not copy" on your discs to prevent extra copies going off anywhere.

(I am not a attorney but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one time. )
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Old 09-16-2014, 08:46 AM
jaymarsch jaymarsch is offline
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I have heard of folks doing a collection of songs specifically for non-commercial purposes such as fundraisers or other humanitarian efforts and I think it is pretty standard practice to seek permission. Usually for these types of things performers/artists are happy to participate and there is a simple written agreement that covers the legality issue.

I tend to be one to err on the side of caution when the law is concerned and I do think it is also a matter of respect for the artist.

Best,
Jayne
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Old 09-16-2014, 05:40 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
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Contact the Harry Fox Agency regarding a mechanical license for the cover tunes.
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Old 09-16-2014, 06:20 PM
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Mr Fixit eh Mr Fixit eh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markm2553 View Post
We play a volunteer gig once a month at a local nursing home.

We have kicked around the idea of making a recording with a few songs and a couple of jokes on it to give out at Christmas to the residents.

Its not a big place and it wouldn't cost us much to make enough for everyone. We would be giving them away.

If no profit was to be made, would we have any royalties to consider to the song writers?

Thanks,
You would be ok if all the songs are in the public domain. If not public domain, you'd need permission or licencing.

steve
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Old 09-29-2014, 08:00 PM
The Bard Rocks The Bard Rocks is offline
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To stay legal, you have 3 choices:

1) Use only Public Domain songs

2) Use only stuff you have written

3) Get (buy) permission. You can always get it through the Harry Fox Agency, but you'll have to pay. How much depends upon how many copies you intend to run off. Alternately, you could try to contact the composer and ask for permission. Explain what you are doing and they might give it to you for free. Or they might not. If you go through Harry Fox, you will get permission and it won't be for free.

Harry Fox does not do any policing as far as I know. But the performer groups like BMI and ASCAP do. They can be downright unpleasant and do not hesitate to threaten lawsuit. They will not be swayed by the fact you may already be losing money on it; that's your lookout, not theirs. Theirs is to protect the artists they represent.

Will they notice you? Maybe, maybe not. How bad do you want to take the risk of getting caught? The nice thing is that if you are cooperative once caught, money will probably take care of the problem.
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Old 09-29-2014, 08:45 PM
louparte louparte is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBmusic View Post
Legally, if you are performing cover songs at a business, they are supposed to have licenses from the PROs. I've never heard of the BMI 'black hats' going after nursing homes, though.
I think at the scale you are contemplating doing, no one's going to come hunting for you. Put "promotional copy only" "do not copy" on your discs to prevent extra copies going off anywhere.

(I am not a attorney but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one time. )
The black hats at ASCAP tried that once. But they got half-beaten to death by old ladies with canes and nurses were chasing them around with syringes. They'll never stray into that nursing home again.
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Old 11-17-2014, 07:57 AM
amyFB amyFB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks View Post
To stay legal, you have 3 choices:

1) Use only Public Domain songs

2) Use only stuff you have written

3) Get (buy) permission. You can always get it through the Harry Fox Agency, but you'll have to pay. How much depends upon how many copies you intend to run off. Alternately, you could try to contact the composer and ask for permission. Explain what you are doing and they might give it to you for free. Or they might not. If you go through Harry Fox, you will get permission and it won't be for free.

Harry Fox does not do any policing as far as I know. But the performer groups like BMI and ASCAP do. They can be downright unpleasant and do not hesitate to threaten lawsuit. They will not be swayed by the fact you may already be losing money on it; that's your lookout, not theirs. Theirs is to protect the artists they represent.

Will they notice you? Maybe, maybe not. How bad do you want to take the risk of getting caught? The nice thing is that if you are cooperative once caught, money will probably take care of the problem.
I found this post using the forum search tool. Thumbs up to AGF Search function.

My own 2 cents of opinion to the folks who are considering that they might choose to stay 'under the radar' and take their chances by not licensing copyrighted material:

It's theft of another's property, and it is willful dishonesty.

I have a hard time to justify a choice that is wrapped in lies and burglary.


Yours in tune,
amyFB
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  #11  
Old 11-17-2014, 10:04 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Me as well.

There are anecdotal cases of an owner finding out about a cover tune uploaded onto YouTube who then offer the right to monetize the clip for their own profit, but I doubt I'm in a league large enough to make that happen, even for someone else's material.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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  #12  
Old 11-17-2014, 12:23 PM
Trevor B. Trevor B. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markm2553 View Post
We play a volunteer gig once a month at a local nursing home.

We have kicked around the idea of making a recording with a few songs and a couple of jokes on it to give out at Christmas to the residents.

Its not a big place and it wouldn't cost us much to make enough for everyone. We would be giving them away.

If no profit was to be made, would we have any royalties to consider to the song writers?

Thanks,
Hello Mark, You're really talking about licensing fees. Here in Canada if an artist makes a record "for commercial purposes" i.e. to sell, and records a registered composer's work he or she pays (a) licensing fee(s) to SOCAN based on the total number units available for sale. It is my understanding that ASCAP is the U.S. equivalent and even if your Royalty/Mechanical Rights system is different than ours ASCAP is still a good starting point to get the info you need. Here's the online link: http://www.ascap.com/licensing/licen...q.aspx#general
I'd be really surprised if you have to pay licensing fees for a CD you're giving away. Consider this; people don't pay licensing fees when they upload videos of cover tunes to youtube. Just for clarification, royalties are what get paid out by SOCAN here and ASCAP, BMI and others in the U.S. to the composer or owner of the intellectual property.
Anyway, hope this helps and good luck with your Christmas recording idea.
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Old 11-17-2014, 12:36 PM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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So what you're saying is, it's OK to give away something that doesn't belong to you?

Sorry, that just sounds weird.

How can you give something away if it doesn't belong to you?

You may be less liable than if you sold it, but it's still not your intellectual property.

Regards,

Ty Ford
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Old 11-17-2014, 12:57 PM
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Doug Young Doug Young is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor B. View Post
Consider this; people don't pay licensing fees when they upload videos of cover tunes to youtube.
You Tube is a can of worms. Just because you *can* upload something doesn't mean it's legal. It's not. You Tube has mechanisms to detect some cases, but not others, and there's a lot of "wink, wink" going on.

All these rights issues get very confusing, complicated by some very visible ways (like You Tube) that people flaunt the laws. But the basic rules of thumb are pretty simple:

If you perform something that you didn't write, royalties are owed. In the US, at least, the venue, not the performer is responsible for paying. This is the domain of ASCAP/BMI

If you record and distribute something you don't own, you owe royalties. That includes posting to You Tube, giving it away to Grandma, etc. This is the domain of Harry Fox.

if you publish written music someone else wrote (tab, etc), you owe royalties. This is much more complicated, and not something most individuals can manage on their own, so you need to work with a publisher (Hal Leonard, etc)

The easiest way to avoid all this is to only do your own tunes, or tunes that are public domain.

Last edited by Doug Young; 11-17-2014 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 11-17-2014, 01:33 PM
Ruppster Ruppster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amyFB View Post
I found this post using the forum search tool. Thumbs up to AGF Search function.

My own 2 cents of opinion to the folks who are considering that they might choose to stay 'under the radar' and take their chances by not licensing copyrighted material:

It's theft of another's property, and it is willful dishonesty.

I have a hard time to justify a choice that is wrapped in lies and burglary.


Yours in tune,
amyFB
Lies and Burglary? A bit harsh for some guys trying to bring enjoyment to a group of seniors. Also, burglary is most often defined as a felony, which seems a bit strong in this case.

Willful dishonesty? Have your ever told a white lie so as not to hurt a person's feelings, or to avoid an argument with a co-worker, friend or loved one?


I realize there is a technical, legal point in question here and I may be in the minority, but I fall on the side of common sense on this one and would burn the discs and take my chances.

I'd also suggest you slip a twenty into a kettle of a Salvation Army bell ringer on behalf of the artists whose tunes you're playing.

The joy and goodwill you spread is worth the risk in my opinion, though I realize I am in the minority here.
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