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  #31  
Old 08-17-2013, 03:47 AM
billybillly
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I see you have chosen not to embrace my truss rod technique, I'm very okay with that (nice little story though, albeit ridiculous). What about having to take the neck off to adjust one? Still a fan of that?

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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
Just so that I'm clear on The Truth...

So, suppose for discussion sake, a truss rod needs one full turn of the truss rod to achieve the desired neck relief. You state, that one should turn the nut 1/8 of a turn and then "let it settle". For how long does it need to settle? An hour, a day, a week? Let's take the middle value, a day. So, on day two I then turn the nut another 1/8, then let it settle for another day? On the third day, I then turn it another 1/8? To get to the required full one turn, will, by your scheme, take 7 days. Instead, let's let it settle for an hour between 1/8 turns. It then takes 7 hours to adjust the truss rod?

Now, your reasoning, uh, sorry, "truth", is that if one turns it the full one turn all at once, it increases the chances of the rod breaking? So, again, for discussion sake, I turn the rod 7/8 of a turn at which point it suddenly breaks without warning. If we use your "truth", of turning only 1/8 at a time, what happens when we get to the 7/8 of a turn, arriving there after 6 consecutive days of 1/8 turns at a time? Will having tightened the nut to the same tension over 6 days prevent that failure? Is there going to be some warning at 6/8 + 1/32 turns that one more 32nd of a turn and it will break? Or is it going to break at the same point, without warning, as it did doing it as a single adjustment?
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  #32  
Old 08-17-2013, 08:49 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybillly View Post
I see you have chosen not to embrace my truss rod technique,...
You have provided no reason to. Instead you have provided your belief. All kinds of people believe in all sorts of things: that doesn't make them true.

It appears that you are either unable or unwilling to substantiate your belief when presented with rational exploration of it.


Quote:
What about having to take the neck off to adjust one? Still a fan of that?
If that's what needs to be done on a guitar that I'm presented with, then that is what I will do.

How about you? Do you refuse to do repairs on guitars whose designs are "too stupid" for you to work on or that require using techniques you don't "embrace"?

Last edited by charles Tauber; 08-17-2013 at 08:55 AM.
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  #33  
Old 08-17-2013, 09:50 AM
scottishrogue scottishrogue is offline
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Cool Truss Rod Adjustment

I feel compelled to jump in here...not sure why, though. Interesting conversation (or should I say debate) between 2 individuals, and many AFG members just sit by to see how things play out...not me.

I acquired a guitar some time ago that had fret buzz all the way up and down the entire fretboard. Sighting down the neck, I could see that dreaded "hump" where the body and neck are joined. I knew from my own experience that the truss rod was way too tight. I backed it off 2 full turns, when the nut got very loose, but I could still see the hump.

I decided to wait a few days, to do some research online, and over a week passed when I returned to this problem. In that time, the hump had disappeared, and I could see the neck now had a slight cupping. The fret buzz had also miraculously been eliminated, as well. And the nut was not as loose as it was the previous week.

I then began tightening the nut until the neck was dead flat, and checked to see if there were any frets that were either too high or too low. Charles, you might recall a conversation we had some time ago about fret buzz. While I'm still confused about what you said, if it works for you, go for it. Then, I set the relief and the action was good, so I just left it alone. Took the rest of the day off.

So, as you can see there are many roads to travel to get to one's destination, and no matter which route you take, short or long (the high road or the low road, so to speak) the journey is interesting, right? Ok, now for more entertaining conversation.

Glen
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  #34  
Old 08-17-2013, 10:58 AM
Fire&Rain Fire&Rain is offline
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Someone pass the popcorn...
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  #35  
Old 08-17-2013, 11:01 AM
dwstout dwstout is offline
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Like my question about ASCAP license this has generated quite a bit of "discussion". I've been playing for 40+ years. I've owned 11 guitars in that time, 7 right now. The oldest (at the moment) is a 1999 Santa Cruz. I've never needed a truss rod or any other neck or saddle adjustment in all that time. The Santa Cruz neck is as straight and the action is a nice as the day I bought it (used in 2001). Am I too tolerant of my guitar necks, have I been lucky, or are neck adjustment that unusual?
BTW: What GREAT place to find out stuff!!!
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Last edited by dwstout; 08-17-2013 at 11:14 AM.
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  #36  
Old 08-17-2013, 01:58 PM
billybillly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
You have provided no reason to. Instead you have provided your belief. All kinds of people believe in all sorts of things: that doesn't make them true.

It appears that you are either unable or unwilling to substantiate your belief when presented with rational exploration of it.




If that's what needs to be done on a guitar that I'm presented with, then that is what I will do.

How about you? Do you refuse to do repairs on guitars whose designs are "too stupid" for you to work on or that require using techniques you don't "embrace"?
Truss Rod: Okay, I turn it an 1/8th and check it, 85% of the movement takes place immediately and if necessary, turn another 1/8th and let it settle for a few hours. It doesn't take a week like you have fictitiously presented.

Stupid Truss Rod Location: Would never buy one because, their stupid. Once again you have made up a little story about being presented one you don't own. Originally, you advocated it's location as our forefathers could never be wrong. Changing your mind as it suits you, not good enough.
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  #37  
Old 08-17-2013, 02:27 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybillly View Post
Truss Rod: Okay, I turn it an 1/8th and check it, 85% of the movement takes place immediately and if necessary, turn another 1/8th and let it settle for a few hours. It doesn't take a week like you have fictitiously presented.
Though math was never my strong suit, my math suggests that's 2/8. What happens for the remainder of the 6/8 of the full revolution of the nut that I postulated? What do you do on instruments that require more than 2/8 of a turn? And, how long does it take you to achieve the remaining 6/8 at 1/8 of a turn at a time?

Quote:
Once again you have made up a little story about being presented one you don't own.
I've made and repaired guitars for more than 30 years. During that time, literally hundreds of customers have brought to me guitars for adjustment or repair. I have never owned any of the guitars that they have brought to me. Of those guitars, I have been presented on more than one occasion with guitars who's truss rod adjustment cannot be accessed without removing the string tension. You've never had someone bring you such an instrument for adjustment? The most recent one brought to me for adjustment, a few weeks ago, was a Lowden. No, I don't own that one either, though a very nice instrument.

Quote:
Originally, you advocated it's location as our forefathers could never be wrong. Changing your mind as it suits you, not good enough.
I admire your active imagination.

Here's what actually happened:

One person stated that he can't think of any reason to not adjust a truss rod with the strings at full tension. I gave one example where it isn't possible. At no time have I advocated anything regarding where the adjustment should or shouldn't be. At no time did I make any judgement about what our forefathers did or didn't do or its being right or wrong, or what people currently should or shouldn't do. Nor did I call any design stupid - or smart, for that matter. I simply stated that there are circumstances wherein it isn't possible to make the adjustment at full tension. I stated that in those cases, I do what is necessary to make the adjustment. If that involves taking the tension off the strings to make the adjustment, so be it.

Feel free to re-read this thread and point out where you believe I have stated what you claim. Please read carefully and accurately what was actually written.

The question still remains: you have never needed to make a truss rod adjustment on a guitar who's truss rod nut cannot be accessed without removing string tension? And, how would you make the adjustment on such an instrument? You state:

Quote:
Originally Posted by billybillly View Post
I work carefully and precisely and my customers appreciate this.
For which you should be applauded. But, what happens when one of your customers brings you an instrument on which you cannot adjust the truss rod without removing the string tension, or one that requires more than 2/8 of a turn of the truss rod?

Oh, and pass the popcorn, please. I know, I know, I really should find a more productive form of entertainment.

Last edited by charles Tauber; 08-17-2013 at 03:09 PM.
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  #38  
Old 08-17-2013, 03:30 PM
Lakedaisy Lakedaisy is offline
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And we wonder why Congress can't pass a law. Three pages on adjusting a truss rod!
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  #39  
Old 08-17-2013, 04:20 PM
billybillly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
Oh, and pass the popcorn, please. I know, I know, I really should find a more productive form of entertainment.
Well, I agree with you on this point, you bite hard.

Thanks for the tango, this place can get so boring, I needed that.
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  #40  
Old 08-17-2013, 04:34 PM
Guest 1928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybillly View Post
Stupid Truss Rod Location: Would never buy one because, their stupid.
Charles' question was not what you think of the design. You've been pretty clear on that. The question was about your approach to an adjustment on a customer's guitar with that style neck. Would you work on it or wouldn't you?

That location might not be my first choice, but if I liked the guitar otherwise, that alone would not stop me from buying it. As far as Fenders go, if you like a thick neck on your Telecaster, you're likely to be stuck with that location since their biggest necks are all vintage style and all incorporate that type of truss rod.
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  #41  
Old 08-17-2013, 04:50 PM
SOR SOR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
Ever tried adjusting one of these with the strings on and at full tension?

I assumed this was an acoustic guitar forum, although I do look forward to your examples of acoustic guitars requiring neck removal for truss rod adjustment.

I had three Fenders in the 60's and their TR arrangement was notorious even then. It's also worth noting I never needed to adjust any of them due to the rigidity of the maple necks and the generally lighter gauge strings used on electrics.
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  #42  
Old 08-17-2013, 08:37 PM
billybillly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Yates View Post
As far as Fenders go, if you like a thick neck on your Telecaster, you're likely to be stuck with that location since their biggest necks are all vintage style and all incorporate that type of truss rod.
No, I don't limit myself with the confines of Fenders historical stupidity. I buy my necks from Warmoth and Musikraft. Big baseball bat necks with truss rod accessibility in the smart location.

Would I work on one? Irrelevant, I said I'd never buy one.
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  #43  
Old 08-17-2013, 08:43 PM
Guest 1928
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You've refused to answer a reasonable question posed by two different people. I think that tells me all I need to know.
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  #44  
Old 08-17-2013, 10:20 PM
billybillly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Yates View Post
You've refused to answer a reasonable question posed by two different people. I think that tells me all I need to know.
Oh Todd, you bit on a discussion that was not your own, what do you expect?

Yet, you remain ill informed on what necks offer the properly placed truss rod accessibility. Read my words and learn, not read my words, misinterpret and have a hissy fit.
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  #45  
Old 08-17-2013, 10:58 PM
Davis Webb Davis Webb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodger Knox View Post
First, the assertation that adjusting under tension doesn't do damage is incorrect. Virtually all rod failures are from adjusting under tension. In the context of the OP, adjusting under tension is bad advice.

I'd almost be willing to bet that a rod adjustment isn't the correct fix, but without seeing it in person, I couldn't say.
This isn't correct. Adjust it while under regular tension. For your Ibanez, this will be fine.

Last edited by Davis Webb; 08-17-2013 at 11:11 PM.
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