Where am I (musically) ?

[D. Shelton]

I have the notes E,F,G,A,Bb,C,D,E , and the chords

E min. natural 7
F maj. 7
G min. 7
A min. 7
Bb maj. 7
C 7 ( C maj. triad with a b7)...( right way to say it?)
D min. 7

Kinda makes sense looking at the F as I, Bb as IV and C as V ,
but if I knew, I wouldn't be asking

[stanron]

This looks like the key of F major.

I don't get why you are adding a fourth note to your triads but they all seem to be in the same key of F major.

[Doug Young]

I think you have to give us more to go on. 1 flat corresponds to F major, and the chords you give are the F major diatonic chords, except that I don't know what you mean by Em natural 7. The E chord in the key of F would be Em7b5 (aka E half diminished), with the notes EGBbD. I also wonder if you're implying something by the note sequence starting on E. if you play that scale, and mean than E is the tonic, then it's Locrian mode. Those chords (ignoring the Em problem) and notes could also be used in any of the modes of F, what matters is what the key center is - what note you hear as the root. It could be G Dorian, Dm (Aeolean), C Mixolydian, etc. All the same notes, it just depends on how they're used.

[D. Shelton]

I am a complete idiot (and don't mind saying so ) . It IS a familiar form on the neck (E DMS form, with the nut acting as a fretted note on the E,A,D,G, and E strings . So yeah , key center F , and F is 1, Bb is IV, C is V , and so on , right on the button .

This is silly because I know the 5 CAGED forms in my sleep , but I was trying to play along with a Sarod tune, and it sounded exotic, and the E form being up 1/2 step .... oh, I was looking for something unfamiliar that wasn't there , while what was there was right under my nose.

So, move along people, nothing to see here

(and the E IS Locrian, but I made the mistake in the OP of designating it's b7 as natural )

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by D. Shelton

(and the E IS Locrian, but I made the mistake in the OP of designating it's b7 as natural )

Well, the 7th is "natural", in the sense that's D natural, and is the "normal" minor 7th. If it was D#, then you'd call it a "major 7th", right?
In F major, the 5th of the chord should, of course be flat (diminished), which I'm guessing it is (as you call it "locrian").
Does the song really have all 7 of those chords? (Interesting if so, because that's rare.)

Apart from F major, the other possible key is D minor - Em7b5 would be more common in that key, but then I'd expect to see an A7 if that was the case .

[D. Shelton]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Well, the 7th is "natural", in the sense that's D natural, and is the "normal" minor 7th. If it was D#, then you'd call it a "major 7th", right?
In F major, the 5th of the chord should, of course be flat (diminished), which I'm guessing it is (as you call it "locrian").
Does the song really have all 7 of those chords? (Interesting if so, because that's rare.)

Apart from F major, the other possible key is D minor - Em7b5 would be more common in that key, but then I'd expect to see an A7 if that was the case .

Er... no, the tune is like a long solo . I guess chords could be implied by what modes the solo parts indicate, but this ones all lead melodic work. I had started playing along and then mapped out notes on paper , but missed the
(now obvious) E-Form pattern in the map . I had written out scales (using scale degrees) using each note as a root, but in a monumental effort of *******ery , failed to notice (because of the mistake on the Em7b5) that all the scales matched up to familiar mode scales . It was when I saw all those matching up (but for the one mistake) that I said "wait a minute..." and then found my mistake .

So , with the E-form from CAGED in place with the nut as the top row of notes (except for the open b string) , it's plain old F as the key center , and the triad chords (with modes noted) that are all not in the tune being

F-I, Gm-ii, Am-iii, Bb-IV, C-V, Dm-vi, Em dim -vii

I don't read sheet music, so I don't think of keys the same way as normal people but I can correlate most of what you said .

But it is weird, the way the Sarodist bends strings to get a range of at least 1.5 steps either way; it makes the tune sound exotic , and it fooled me into thinking it wasn't a regular 'key' ( or CAGED form , more accurately in the context ) that I was used to .

So I'd have tetrad chords of F maj7, Gm7, Am7, Bb maj7, C7, Dmin7, and Em dim. 7 , alrightey then .... that was a good "back to basics " lesson .
(like I said but deleted , it's been a while since I went over this stuff)

[EoE]

to answer your question you are in need of a teacher and a theory class.

[Doug Young]

To me, it sounds like you're making this too hard. Tetrachords, caged, etc, none of this sounds relevant. You just have a tune in the key of F., apparently just a melody. Caged, for example, is just about how notes lie on the fretboard - a very mechanical guitar-specific thing -" nothing to do with keys, harmony, etc. maybe it'd be clearer if we heard what it is you're trying to work out. Are you trying to harmonize this melody- add chords to it?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by D. Shelton

Er... no, the tune is like a long solo . I guess chords could be implied by what modes the solo parts indicate, but this ones all lead melodic work. I had started playing along and then mapped out notes on paper , but missed the
(now obvious) E-Form pattern in the map . I had written out scales (using scale degrees) using each note as a root, but in a monumental effort of *******ery , failed to notice (because of the mistake on the Em7b5) that all the scales matched up to familiar mode scales . It was when I saw all those matching up (but for the one mistake) that I said "wait a minute..." and then found my mistake .

So , with the E-form from CAGED in place with the nut as the top row of notes (except for the open b string) , it's plain old F as the key center , and the triad chords (with modes noted) that are all not in the tune being

F-I, Gm-ii, Am-iii, Bb-IV, C-V, Dm-vi, Em dim -vii

I don't read sheet music, so I don't think of keys the same way as normal people but I can correlate most of what you said .

But it is weird, the way the Sarodist bends strings to get a range of at least 1.5 steps either way; it makes the tune sound exotic , and it fooled me into thinking it wasn't a regular 'key' ( or CAGED form , more accurately in the context ) that I was used to .

So I'd have tetrad chords of F maj7, Gm7, Am7, Bb maj7, C7, Dmin7, and Em dim. 7 , alrightey then .... that was a good "back to basics " lesson .
(like I said but deleted , it's been a while since I went over this stuff)

Hmm, seeing as you mention sarod - and it's all "lead melodic work" - I'm tempted to agree with Doug. Are there actually any chords in this at all? If not, why are you thinking chords (or modes)?

Then again, if you (now) understand it all well enough (according to your personal viewpoint), I disagree with EoE: you don't need theory lessons. Not unless you need to have some kind of theory-based conversation on a board like this... ) (And if it's Indian music, western theory is kind of irrelevant anyway.)

Do you have a sound clip or link you could post? It sounds interesting...

[D. Shelton]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

To me, it sounds like you're making this too hard. Tetrachords, caged, etc, none of this sounds relevant. You just have a tune in the key of F., apparently just a melody. Caged, for example, is just about how notes lie on the fretboard - a very mechanical guitar-specific thing -" nothing to do with keys, harmony, etc. maybe it'd be clearer if we heard what it is you're trying to work out. Are you trying to harmonize this melody- add chords to it?

But when I pin the E form (from caged) down to a specific position, it does define key , because I used all the notes from the pinned-down form as roots of chords, and 1's of the related scales which put me in F.

At first when I mapped the notes out (but made a mistake) I thought I was in a different tonal system (melodic minor maybe) and I figured out the chords and scales , but then when they matched too closely the chords and scales of diatonic Major system I found my mistake. The exercise was about
using the melody to find the matching caged form and scales and chords....
which I've done.

[D. Shelton]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Hmm, seeing as you mention sarod - and it's all "lead melodic work" - I'm tempted to agree with Doug. Are there actually any chords in this at all? If not, why are you thinking chords (or modes)?

Then again, if you (now) understand it all well enough (according to your personal viewpoint), I disagree with EoE: you don't need theory lessons. Not unless you need to have some kind of theory-based conversation on a board like this... ) (And if it's Indian music, western theory is kind of irrelevant anyway.)

Do you have a sound clip or link you could post? It sounds interesting...

Well, though it seems like all lead melodic work, a teensy bit more playing along seemed to reveal 'implied' modes , and therefore implied or applicable chords .

But I was just goofing around , thought I got lost , asked for directions, then realized I knew where I was, and don't exactly (or remotely ) thrive on these types of discussions ...

The piece in question was something I snagged off of youtube , but hadn't
saved the title or artist info .

Some nice Ali Akbar Khan instead :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pthv_82lfOc

Gracias, humanoids !

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by D. Shelton

But when I pin the E form (from caged) down to a specific position, it does define key , because I used all the notes from the pinned-down form as roots of chords, and 1's of the related scales which put me in F.

This may be my not understanding what you're doing, or just a difference in ways of thinking, but to me, you're in the key of F because of the notes and the tonality. It has nothing to do with the guitar. You'd be in the key of F if you played those notes on the flute, or trombone, or harmonica, or sang them. As soon as your talking shapes and CAGED, and so on, you're talking about mechanical/geometrical tools that help you locate notes on the guitar. The key drives what shapes you choose, not the other way around. The notes are what matter.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by D. Shelton

Well, though it seems like all lead melodic work, a teensy bit more playing along seemed to reveal 'implied' modes , and therefore implied or applicable chords .

I see what you're saying (I think). You're translating what you're picking up into familiar shapes or patterns on the fretboard. (And in your initial post you hadn't yet worked it out, but then you did. )

Trouble is (for us ) you're using theoretical terms in unorthodox ways - hence answers which may be off track from what you're asking.
Eg, if the scale is one set of 7 notes - as it seems to be - and there is just one key centre (as I'm sure there would be in this kind of music) - then there is only one "mode", no matter how many chords you can form from those notes.
Eg, if F is the tonal centre (it might not be), then the mode is F ionian, or "F major key", as it's commonly known. (Regardless of how many chords the piece contains.)
Likewise, if (say) G was the tonal centre, it would be G dorian.
You can obviously play those 7 notes (whatever mode they're used for) in various positions on the neck, but that's not different "modes". Modes are not fret patterns. Or, at least, if you're using mode names for fret patterns (or for chords in a key), that's going to conflict with the other (more correct) meaning of "mode", which is something more like a key (a scale that applies to a whole piece of music, or at least large sections of it).

Not trying to lecture you here : you call things as you like, it's up to you. Just explaining why you're getting answers here that may seem beside the point.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by D. Shelton

Some nice Ali Akbar Khan instead :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pthv_82lfOc

That piece, for example, doesn't translate well into western theoretical terms. There seems to be a C tonal centre, at least as an occasional bass drone. But melodically there is a B and a Bb, a fair amount of emphasis on F - and of course, a lot of swooping between pitch (microtonal embellishments); tuning that doesn't quite match western equal temperament (guitar frets).
It's not in a "key", and there are no "chords". It's definitely what we'd call "modal", but even that doesn't get to grips with what's going on (something between ionian and mixolydian? or both or neither?).
IOW, it doesn't really help at all (IMO) to try to apply western terminology to it; it's beside the point. It has its own "theory", the reasons why it's the way it is, why those notes are chosen.

Great stuff, obviously!

[D. Shelton]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

This may be my not understanding what you're doing, or just a difference in ways of thinking, but to me, you're in the key of F because of the notes and the tonality. It has nothing to do with the guitar. You'd be in the key of F if you played those notes on the flute, or trombone, or harmonica, or sang them. As soon as your talking shapes and CAGED, and so on, you're talking about mechanical/geometrical tools that help you locate notes on the guitar. The key drives what shapes you choose, not the other way around. The notes are what matter.

Difference in ways of thinking and expressing. I almost always link whatever theory or musical thing that's floating around in my head to the guitar , just because the guitar is my avenue of expression for music . I've learned things backwards then , having first learned caged and then working with it as the frame of reference (for scales , chords , and arpeggios that fit onto the forms ) to write and noodle with music . This, instead of working with music first and figuring out how that goes onto a guitar. It's just the way I chose to work (only working on my own stuff) when I started playing again .

But yeah, I get and agree with all that you just said, with the tweak that I do look at it backwards sometimes