Fret crown shape buzz

[rick-slo]

Strings can buzz something awful right on the fret being pressed with the finger. It is usually most noticeable on the first couple of frets of the wound strings, especially the low E string. You can lessen it by pressing quite firmly behind the fret (swings the string a tinny bit up as it rides over the crown) or you can press more right on the fret (mutes the string a bit).

So the string rests on the crown and just anterior (towards the bridge) to that it buzzes on the crown as it falls away from the sting.

My impression is that wider fretwire does this a bit less, but that could of course be from a limited sample base.

This buzz occurs on untouched crowns as they come from the factory as well as reworked crowns. I do believe it lessens as the crowns wear down a bit from playing.

With longer lasting fretwire (stainless, EVO) the initial crown shape is even more important.

Has anyone noticed this crown buzz and done something with crown shape to try and reduce it (doubt you can eliminate completely)?

[murrmac123]

I have to say that this is not a phenomenon which I have noticed myself ... any time I have a buzz on the actual fret being played, it is invariably due either to insufficient fingertip pressure or else, (more commonly), from fretting the string too far back from the fret.

A far as crown shape is concerned, my own preference, both sonically and from the intonation standpoint , is for a triangular profile with a rounded top, and I reshape my frets thus. I like the string to make contact at one discrete point in the center of the fret, as far as is practically possible (obviously you don't want a knife edge).

[rick-slo]

Thanks for the reply. It is not from lack of playing technique and it is a pretty common sound to occur. However the rounded triangular fret crown may be helpful. You might try listening to some other guitars you have not done fret work on.

[Rodger Knox]

The buzz to which you refer is commonly caused by a slight flat spot on the top of the fret, and is usually fixed by properly crowning the fret.
As murrmac said, triangular with a rounded top works best.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

The buzz to which you refer is commonly caused by a slight flat spot on the top of the fret, and is usually fixed by properly crowning the fret.
As murrmac said, triangular with a rounded top works best.

That may make it worse. However one of the worst examples of the buzz is on a brand new set of frets where the crown shape was untouched during the refret (i.e. no flat spots).

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

That may make it worse. However one of the worst examples of the buzz is on a brand new set of frets where the crown shape was untouched during the refret (i.e. no flat spots).

Derek, I am confused ... are you saying that your luthier refretted a guitar without carrying out a subsequent fret leveling?

Fret wire can and does vary randomly (although minutely) from its nominal dimensions along a 4 foot length. These discrepancies are admittedly almost microscopic, but when you factor in the inevitable variations in pressure when installing the frets, then the discrepancies can mount up, sometimes enough to create unwanted buzzes.

A fret leveling is mandatory after installing a new set of frets.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

Derek, I am confused ... are you saying that your luthier refretted a guitar without carrying out a subsequent fret leveling?

Fret wire can and does vary randomly (although minutely) from its nominal dimensions along a 4 foot length. These discrepancies are admittedly almost microscopic, but when you factor in the inevitable variations in pressure when installing the frets, then the discrepancies can mount up, sometimes enough to create unwanted buzzes.

A fret leveling is mandatory after installing a new set of frets.

Frets are level. It happens on all guitars I have ever played. It does vary in intensity however, most obvious on the first and second fret of the low E string. Seems more noticeable on standard .043 X .080 wire than wider wire.

[rick-slo]

Here is a sound sample of a couple of different guitar. Initial note on each is an open string, then fretted. Each string was fretted properly.
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Misc/CrownBuzz.mp3

Normally playing along in a song it may not be noticed but it nevertheless becomes part of the "tone" of the guitar. With the harder fretwire material maybe there could be a more "creative" way of crown shaping.

[arie]

all strings buzz on all frets everywhere. it's vibrating metal on stationary metal -it's their nature, this is why wrap grooves get cut into them, but properly crowned frets regardless of their width or height, reduce the metal to metal contact thus reducing the "buzz". compared to those silly gibson fretless wonders with full width flat frets that just make playing more work.

conversely, electric guitars with smaller strings, larger frets, lower tension, and shredding action, buzz all the time.

i did listen to your sample though there is a hint of harmonic noise in the early decay of the lower notes specifically at :03

but then, if this is on multiple guitars, on every guitar you have ever played, new frets, old frets, or whatever frets, and is pretty common, etc... you rule out technique?

can't comment on your other posts, they seem confusing.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by arie

all strings buzz on all frets everywhere. it's vibrating metal on stationary metal -it's their nature, this is why wrap grooves get cut into them, but properly crowned frets regardless of their width or height, reduce the metal to metal contact thus reducing the "buzz". compared to those silly gibson fretless wonders with full width flat frets that just make playing more work.



conversely, electric guitars with smaller strings, larger frets, lower tension, and shredding action buzz all the time.



i did listen to your sample though, and it sounds like you have some neck relief or nut height issues. there is a hint of harmonic noise in the early decay of the lower notes specifically at :03



have you tweaked the neck relief to rule that out?

Not a nut issue (how could that even be considered) and not a relief issue. The buzz originates
right on the fret being pressed, not other frets down the line.

Not harmonic decay at three second mark, but it is the buzz I am talking about.

Normal ears, but experienced and a little picky.

Fretting technique good.

Some buzz is inevitable, but amount of buzz does vary with crown shape and width.
Basically you are not hearing what I am describing, and that is fine. My local tech
did not notice it either until I pointed it out to him and he reproduced it himself.

Was just wondering is anyone had tried something to deal with this. The more V shape
use by murrmac123 might help compared to more rounded crowns. Harder fretwire material
would help slow down the wear of the peak. Would have to do more testing on that.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

That may make it worse. However one of the worst examples of the buzz is on a brand new set of frets where the crown shape was untouched during the refret (i.e. no flat spots).

Some of the other guys got answers up already that I agree with.

A few points to re-stress...

- Flat spots on frets will increase the chances for micro-buzzes.
- Round crowns (or triangular with rounded top) will not cause buzzing.
- Few guitar making factories seem to level frets after installation. With machines pressing the frets into the guitar, there is less of a chance for variation in height, but still variations will exist. These variations should be flattened to yield the most buzz free guitar possible. Gibson levels their frets, but they do not re-crown. Other companies don't level.

Hand builders and repairmen sometimes do not level after fret installation. I also disagree that this is best practice, because there WILL be small variations in fret height that WILL cause buzzing here and there - it is a question of degree and if that bothers the owner (since we all have very different tolerances to buzzing).

If this is something happening on ALL of your guitars, I might want to check a reputable guitarist/builder/repairman who can give you an assessment. We can only do so much diagnosis via forum.

What you describe as a buzz on the 1st and 2nd of the low E might be "par for the course" or it could be a sign of a problem.

Where do you keep your action (height)??

Here's something to think about. A PERFECT fingerboard should have a straighter fret plane (ie: less neck bow) on the treble side than the bass side, due to the difference of range of motion of the bass vs. treble strings.

Perhaps if you play with super low action, you are simply past the range of buzz free playing on the lower frets of the low E string (which has greater mass and greater movement range while vibrating than the other strings).

[rick-slo]

Thanks for the reply Ned. I do wish to get past discussing anything that does not address specifically the shape of the fret crown and buzzes right at that point, even on brand new frets
i.e.
Not worn frets with flat spots
Not setup issues (except fret crowns of course)
Not buzzes on frets anterior the one being pressed
Not some weird harmonic resonances
Not playing technique issues

The recording I made demonstrate the sound clearly.

I do agree it is par for the course. It is just overlooked frequently. I am fine with some "on the fret buzz" to an extent because elimination of it is very likely not possible. However the degree of it varies with crown shape and dimensions.

Diagnosis of my specific guitars is not needed. It occurs on guitars in general. If one has not noticed that, well...

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Here is a sound sample of a couple of different guitar. Initial note on each is an open string, then fretted. Each string was fretted properly.
http://dcoombsguitar.com/Misc/CrownBuzz.mp3

What you are demonstrating is not "normal". I have observed it, but only on frets that are not properly shaped, are not level or are worn. One can also obtain that by "over-playing" for the string height: raise the strings a little and it goes away.

If it occurs on every guitar you play - and does not occur when others play the same guitars - the common denominator is you. I've been playing, building and repairing guitars for a long time now and do not experience that, but as I said, on worn, unlevel or misshapen frets or by playing hard enough to cause the string to buzz, using a very aggressive attack.

As Ned suggested, I'd suggest you take one of your guitars that exhibits this to a skilled repair person, preferably one who plays well and is well-versed in different playing technique.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

What you are demonstrating is not "normal". I have observed it, but only on frets that are not properly shaped, are not level or are worn. One can also obtain that by "over-playing" for the string height: raise the strings a little and it goes away.

If it occurs on every guitar you play - and does not occur when others play the same guitars - the common denominator is you. I've been playing, building and repairing guitars for a long time now and do not experience that, but as I said, on worn, unlevel or misshapen frets or by playing hard enough to cause the string to buzz, using a very aggressive attack.

As Ned suggested, I'd suggest you take one of your guitars that exhibits this to a skilled repair person, preferably one who plays well and is well-versed in different playing technique.

Thanks for the reply.

I would say it is the normal situation even on a fresh set of frets. Every guitar does it to some extent. It does vary in degree however, and usually not as much as in the clips where I fretted it with normal pressure but just posted the most obvious instances. If you press hard enough the sound is much less or even absent but that is the opposite of a good technique of lighter touch and conserved energy.
Now the shape of the crowns is the specific issue (not the rest of the setup). You mention "properly shaped" and that is the issue. However you do not say what that shape is in your opinion. Do we go symmetrically round or triangular peaked, do we go something asymmetric? I am thinking something asymmetric with a steeper drop on the anterior (towards the bridge) portion. Either the string is chattering around on the fret point of contact or there is a buzz minutely anterior the area of most firm contact. However how long would the crown hold its initial shape? Probably not long enough with NS fretwire to get to fancy about it. However with the durability of stainless steel it may be due more careful consideration.

P.S. I have an excellent tech who is also a full time luthier.
P.S.S. I don't have poor fretting technique.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Now the shape of the crowns is the specific issue (not the rest of the setup). You mention "properly shaped" and that is the issue. However you do not say what that shape is in your opinion. Do we go symmetrically round or triangular peaked, do we go something asymmetric? I am thinking something asymmetric with a steeper drop on the anterior (towards the bridge) portion. However how long would the crown hold its shape? Probably not long enough with NS fretwire to get to fancy about it. However with stainless steel it is due more consideration.

A crown should be evenly rounded on top. That is the main criteria. Other than that, triangular, flat-sided (ie: similar to old bar frets they used to use), wide (jumbo) or narrow, the top should be rounded.

The GENTLER the rounded shape of the crown is, the longer the frets will wear, since there is more contact from string to fret. Jumbo frets, since wider, will wear more slowly than standard. Also, since they are taller, they have more height to wear as well.

The amount of time any person will get out of a dressing/re-crowning will be very much dependent on playing technique and frequency.

I don't see significant advantage in altering the crown shape in non-standard ways.