Laminate vs. Solid Wood - Page 4

edman · #46 04-30-2005, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigMo66

Of course most "cheap" guitars are laminates and most high end guitars are solid, but when some folks want to drive home a point, the term "plywood" is used when laminate is more realistic in guitar making. Yes, it is a "ply", but in the case of guitars such as a Yairi or any quality laminate it is not the plywood you buy at Home Depot nor is it remotely similar. The 1986 DY45 and the 1989 DY74C I owned were fantastic guitars in every way and tonally superior to many of the solid guitars I have owned since. It may be the exception, but it is certainly not rare.

With that being said, I now own solid wood guitars only because I like them and can afford them. I like solid furniture also and so on and so on....

I agree with you.

I didn't mean to use the term "plywood" as a knock against laminates. They are the same thing in my mind: Multiple plys/layers of thin wood glued together to a desired thickness.

There are different grades of of plywood at Home Depot too. Construction ($20.00+ per sheet) and cabinet/furniture grade ($100.00+ per sheet).

I don't consider plywood to be cheap.

Gunny · #47 04-30-2005, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edman

...There are different grades of of plywood at Home Depot too. Construction ($20.00+ per sheet) and cabinet/furniture grade ($100.00+ per sheet).

I don't consider plywood to be cheap.

You got that right. I bought a couple sheets of Birch plywood for some garage cabinets and I might have been better off looking for some Brazilian Rosewood scraps

edman · #48 04-30-2005, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigMo66

You got that right. I bought a couple sheets of Birch plywood for some garage cabinets and I might have been better off looking for some Brazilian Rosewood scraps

I work at Ford Motor Company's Research and Development Center as a millwright. Someone in purchasing ordered a ton of 11 ply, cabinet grade oak plywood to build shipping crates on accident. The carpenters were in tears building those crates. Whoever got those crates probably thought Ford was nuts.

Fredmando · #49 05-01-2005, 03:37 AM

Edman, I know what you mean. On a related note, I used to work for a large lumber yard chain and I couldn't believe the quality of woods that pallets were made of. A friend of mine used to take the best ones for his lathe projects!

Brackett Instruments · #50 05-01-2005, 06:36 AM

About the laminate/plywood thing. Actually good plywood is better than the laminate used on cheap guitars. Good birch plywood(using birch for example) is several layers of birch. Cheap guitars have a thin veneer of the actual wood it's supposed to be made of on the outside with layers of cheaper wood glued between sometimes even pressboard in real cheap models. Calling one of these guitars plywood would be giving it a compliment.

MikeD · #51 05-01-2005, 07:50 AM

I have instruments from Somogyi, Matsuda and Beaureguard, all of which have laminant brazilian sides, and the sound of each instrument is simply astounding. If you ask each one why they use laminant sides, they will all pretty much say the same thing, much like Chicago Sandy. The laminant sides help make a very solid box, allowing you to do much more with the top and back in the design of the guitar. The twisting of guitar bodies, especially the tops, normally associated with older vintage instruments, is virtually eliminated. Each of these builders also utilizes a spanish-block neck joint. If you've ever seen one, you know what I'm talking about. That style neck joint makes the junction of the neck and body almost impervious to radical changes over time. The only problem is, if you should ever need to do a neck reset in 20 or 30 years, you need to take the back off the guitar to do it

On the other hand, I have plenty of incredible instruments from other builders with solid sides that are equally astounding in terms of sound, so I think it's hard to say which produces the best sonic qualities. In terms of why companies like Taylor and Martin don't utilize some of the laminant side building practices that a builder like Somogyi uses, I think it comes down to a simple equation that involves time and money.

MiddleAgesMan · #52 05-01-2005, 07:59 AM

I've always assumed the laminated backs/sides in guitars use alternating grain directions in each layer just as is done in ordinary plywood. It is my assumption that those alternating layers are the reason for the relatively poor tone compared to a solid wood guitar. With alternating grain the wood just can't vibrate as much.

My assumptions about grain direction could be all wrong, however. Does anyone know how guitar makers lay up the laminated backs and sides? Does the grain direction alternate between layers?

edman · #53 05-01-2005, 08:57 AM

It sounds like we can all agree that it is important to have a solid top and a solid back.

I agree with many of you: High quality laminates are stronger than solid wood. It would make a more solid box without requiring added bracing if used for the sides of the guitar.

Personally, I love the feel of a solid back acoustic when I hit a "big" open chord. You can feel it vibrate against your body. The notes sustain longer (IMO).

On a side note:

I agree with woody b: "About the laminate/plywood thing. Actually good plywood is better than the laminate used on cheap guitars. Good birch plywood(using birch for example) is several layers of birch. Cheap guitars have a thin veneer of the actual wood it's supposed to be made of on the outside with layers of cheaper wood glued between sometimes even pressboard in real cheap models. Calling one of these guitars plywood would be giving it a compliment."

Veneers or the "photo finish" guitars are becoming more common (especially on Les Paul and Paul Reed Smith copy guitars). Samick (produces over 50% of the guitars in the world today) and other companies are getting better at making "fake" (vaneer / photo finish) woods.

There is a big difference in using laminates to improve the sound of a guitar rather than using them solely to improve the profit margin of the company.

Livingston · #54 05-01-2005, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeD

I have instruments from Somogyi, Matsuda and Beaureguard...

Mike,

Which Matsuda do you have? I mean body style, woods, etc.? Just curious. Haven't seen too many of his guitars, but the ones I have seen are very unique.

jox51 · #55 05-01-2005, 09:33 AM

Laminates suck. Solids rule. Discussion over.

MikeD · #56 05-01-2005, 11:10 AM

I believe that Michi only makes one body size which is sort of an OM-ish looking thing. It's 11 1/2" wide in the UB and 3 3/4" deep at the heel, 15 1/2" wide at the LB and 4 1/2" deep at the end. The wood combination is Braz / Italian, with a spalted maple rosette and that carved ebony "cutaway-thingy" he does on some guitars instead of a traditional cutaway. This one is a little more traditional than most I've seen, which is how I spec'd it. Oddly, it sounds quite different than any of Ervin's guitars I've played. I keep it strung up with mediums at a 3-2 action and it friggin screams!

Bill Cory · #57 05-01-2005, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edman

Veneers or the "photo finish" guitars are becoming more common (especially on Les Paul and Paul Reed Smith copy guitars). Samick (produces over 50% of the guitars in the world today) and other companies are getting better at making "fake" (vaneer / photo finish) woods.

Samick produces over 50% of the guitars in the world today? Is this for real? Seems awfully hard to imagine.

I've heard laminates I liked (like my Seagull s6 folk) and solid woods I liked (like my Taylor 510) and older laminates I liked, too, like my Yammaha 110FG Red Label. To me, it depends on the specific guitar.
2¢

edman · #58 05-01-2005, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Franklin

Samick produces over 50% of the guitars in the world today? Is this for real? Seems awfully hard to imagine.

I've heard laminates I liked (like my Seagull s6 folk) and solid woods I liked (like my Taylor 510) and older laminates I liked, too, like my Yammaha 110FG Red Label. To me, it depends on the specific guitar.
2¢

I thought it was common knowledge how big Samick is.

Here's a quote regarding Samick:

"Korean acoustic guitars offer the highest quality at the lowest price. Samick and ALVAREZ are two of the premier Korean guitar brands today. Samick is the largest guitar maker in the world. They make 60 guitars per minute, 720 per hour, 1,380,000 per year, and 4000 different models under 400 different brand names. That's over half of all guitars made each year! Here are some brand names that buy their guitars from Samick:

Gibson (Epiphone), Washburn, Aria Pro, Rogue, Silvertone, Abeline, Boston, and many more."

It came from this website: http://www.mcguitar.com/AcousticGuitars.htm

wthurman · #59 05-01-2005, 01:32 PM

I like solid wood guitars. I like the idea of the effort and work that goes into it. On some guitars, I seem to hear some difference - but only on very special guitars. I think maybethe sides can be made thinner, and therefore transmit sound better in some cases, but not always. It seems like laminates would also leave more vibration in the top, increasing sustain, maybe.

Don't know. But I do know this: The highest quality guitars I've played have solid backs and sides, and to me, it doesn't matter whether it's the materials or not. What matters is the sound.

That said, I've played plenty of good to great sounding laminate back and side guitars, and I would not hesitate to buy one if it met my desires or needs. I don't see anything wrong with laminate backs and sides except for my internal aesthetic and the other practical consideration - the fact that more exceptional builders use solid woods. I think it has more to do with the builders, in this case, than the materials.

All the best,

Wade

pdave · #60 05-01-2005, 02:19 PM

The Winter '05 issue of 'Frets' has a good article on solid vs laminates, mostly dealing with tops but also touching on backs/sides. There are a number of quotes by (the luthier formerly known as) Uncle Bob:

'It used to be that laminated guitars were bad and solid guitars were good, but I think a lot of that had more to do with poor building skills than any fault of the woods. You definitely lose the tonality of the wood when you go to laminates, but can a laminated guitar be made to sould good? Sure...'

'These days, if a guitar doesn't sound right, I'm a lot less inclined to blame it on the woods'.

He also touches on how Taylor doesn't use wet glues for their lammies but an extremely thin heat-bonded adhesive sheet for a bond that's strong but light.
It's a great article of you can get your hands on it. BT even talks of experimenting with laminates where the grain all runs in one direction.

ps I also have a laminate Yairi (dy-57). It's got a gorgeous tone. Of course, it's almost 30 yrs old.

Dave