know thyself!!

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by Psalad

Thanks for this post. Nicely written.

Cheers - interesting thread!

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by ewalling

I remember once reading a definition of the label 'jerk' (British English 'twat'), which seemed to me an interesting one. It said a jerk is a person whose unabashed confidence in his or her supposed abilities and gifts is not shared by those around him/her. The jerk looks in a mirror and sees one heck of a winner, but s/he is the only one who sees that reflection. Coincidentally, I read that definition while working for a boss who would periodically invite members of staff into his office and boast about what a hotshot he was - how he had always been extraordinary, original, inspired. Hmmm ... Taken to an extreme, I think a complete mismatch between how we see ourselves and how others see us could be a form of mental disorder, where we have a skewed understanding of reality.

Another interesting dimension to this question is the sensation we have when we go to live someplace where no one knows us. Because of my work, I've done this on a number of occasions, in Scandinavia, central Europe, South America, and the Caribbean. In the first weeks, sometimes up to a month or two, I've experienced a very odd sense of invisibility. Here I was, in a completely different environment - interesting, yes, but we can forget how important our reflection in others' eyes is to our own sense of identity. When absolutely no one knows you, your hold on who you 'really' are can seem oddly vulnerable. In my early twenties, I found this sensation exciting, but by the age of 28, it was a sensation that left me temporarily down, with a curious sense of pointlessness. That feeling didn't last long, but interestingly it disappeared as I began to have an identity in the eyes of my new colleagues and neighbors. This makes me think that who we are is very much bound up with who we know and what we do with them.

I agree with psalad: interesting, well-written post. It also provides me with some insight into some of the background that might relate to your other statements and questions regarding behavior=being.

I also vaguely recall A sociologist (perhaps Cooley?) saying something along the same lines of your musings: the self is composed, in part, of fantasies we hold about how others see us. Thus if we do not have contact with others who allow the ongoing conjuring of such fantasies, things can (if we are sensitive enough, and don't shore up the sense of self with other constructed strategies) start to destabilize.

A fine post, and thoughtful (how's that for a groovy reflection).

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

I agree with psalad: interesting, well-written post. It also provides me with some insight into some of the background that might relate to your other statements and questions regarding behavior=being.

I also vaguely recall A sociologist (perhaps Cooley?) saying something along the same lines of your musings: the self is composed, in part, of fantasies we hold about how others see us. Thus if we do not have contact with others who allow the ongoing conjuring of such fantasies, things can (if we are sensitive enough, and don't shore up the sense of self with other constructed strategies) start to destabilize.

A fine post, and thoughtful (how's that for a groovy reflection).

Thanks, man!

[Otterhound]

Originally Posted by D. Shelton

Just with myself as an example , it's taklen a long time to go from being cripplingly self-conscious and worried about how I'm percieved , to being much less of both of those things. Of course there is a spectrum in 'normal'
people , with regards to this thing of how important this all is (who we are as it relates to how we're percieved). I was only interjecting how I am much more comfortable now -as opposed to how I was as a kid- acting mostly however I feel like acting , and not worrying , and not being in many positions where it's very critical , what people think . Of course, with 'normal' people, we have a healthy sense of socially acceptable behaviors that's mostly adhered to out of courtesy and decency . Generally speaking , it seems good to have a balance between independence, and self-modifying in the spirit of cooperation , and/or of wanting to fit in and be thought well of.

Balance has got to be a huge factor with social acceptance .
Many self driven people simply don't fit in because of their internal drive .
Isaac Newton would be a good example of this .
The measures of courtesy and decency vary greatly with different cultures .
The irony of it all is that these misfits often end changing the world around them . Sometimes good and sometimes bad .

[D. Shelton]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

I agree with psalad: interesting, well-written post. It also provides me with some insight into some of the background that might relate to your other statements and questions regarding behavior=being.

I also vaguely recall A sociologist (perhaps Cooley?) saying something along the same lines of your musings: the self is composed, in part, of fantasies we hold about how others see us. Thus if we do not have contact with others who allow the ongoing conjuring of such fantasies, things can (if we are sensitive enough, and don't shore up the sense of self with other constructed strategies) start to destabilize.

A fine post, and thoughtful (how's that for a groovy reflection).

Well that opens things up to what else can happen when we let go of the fantasies that have been conjured up ( I like that way of putting it) . If a person is 'ready' to let go of manufactured versions of self (built on external expectations and circumstances) then perhaps they can then see about building new models of self, based on internal ... stuff . And down the rabbit hole I go (again ). (not that there's any shortage of material on the matter)

[harmonics101]

I feel especially destabilized on Mondays ,

H

[Psalad]

Originally Posted by D. Shelton

Well that opens things up to what else can happen when we let go of the fantasies that have been conjured up ( I like that way of putting it) . If a person is 'ready' to let go of manufactured versions of self (built on external expectations and circumstances) then perhaps they can then see about building new models of self, based on internal ... stuff . And down the rabbit hole I go (again ). (not that there's any shortage of material on the matter)

Another issue that I like to discuss is the necessity of some of these manufactured versions of self to the creative process or going for greatness.

For example, how many artists, scientists/etc have extreme doubts in their abilities? For many people, is this manufactured version of self important to drive forward ideas and execution? How much of us have a (maybe mistaken) belief that we are better than we are? How important is that to keep us going through periods where maybe we aren't that good, until we really get good?

Maybe that idea of self knowledge is less important when you are young and inexperienced... and becomes much more important as time goes on? Certainly for me the desire for self awareness has markedly increased with age. Another reason it's painful to get old.

[seannx]

Originally Posted by Psalad

Another issue that I like to discuss is the necessity of some of these manufactured versions of self to the creative process or going for greatness.

For example, how many artists, scientists/etc have extreme doubts in their abilities? For many people, is this manufactured version of self important to drive forward ideas and execution? How much of us have a (maybe mistaken) belief that we are better than we are? How important is that to keep us going through periods where maybe we aren't that good, until we really get good?

Maybe that idea of self knowledge is less important when you are young and inexperienced... and becomes much more important as time goes on? Certainly for me the desire for self awareness has markedly increased with age. Another reason it's painful to get old.

I think the gap between our actual ability, and a personal attitude/belief that doesn't measure up, becomes more important over time. When you move up the stages in professional development and responsibilities, there is often a learning curve involving new challenges, and potential pitfalls, that requires personal growth and development. You may need to be more careful and aware of what you say, and how and where you say it. You also may be at a point in your development where your skills and creativity are wanted, but you need to grow into the role, and others may recognize your strengths, assets, and liabilities, and be in a position to help you get to the next level. That's where self knowledge is critical, as well as being able to assess how you are coming across, and make appropriate adjustments.

[harmonics101]

Originally Posted by Psalad

...... For example, how many artists, scientists/etc have extreme doubts in their abilities? For many people, is this manufactured version of self important to drive forward ideas and execution? How much of us have a (maybe mistaken) belief that we are better than we are? How important is that to keep us going through periods where maybe we aren't that good, until we really get good? .......

This is encountered in the workplace ALL the time - those people that have a mistaken belief they have more ability than they actually have ? They get promoted to positions they have no competency for ? Chances are that these types get good are slim though - I think that percentage is in the minority.

Probably a bit off topic - but I found your observation very true ,

H

[buddyhu]

Originally Posted by Psalad

Another issue that I like to discuss is the necessity of some of these manufactured versions of self to the creative process or going for greatness.

For example, how many artists, scientists/etc have extreme doubts in their abilities? For many people, is this manufactured version of self important to drive forward ideas and execution? How much of us have a (maybe mistaken) belief that we are better than we are? How important is that to keep us going through periods where maybe we aren't that good, until we really get good?

Maybe that idea of self knowledge is less important when you are young and inexperienced... and becomes much more important as time goes on? Certainly for me the desire for self awareness has markedly increased with age. Another reason it's painful to get old.

I find this question to be REALLY interesting. One facet: if a grandiose self-image supports certain achievements, what types of achievements/developments are rooted in a doubting and deficient sense of self. A biography of Mother Theresa revealed that she had profound and painful doubts about the value of her work, and about the purity of her relationship with God. Amazing. Makes one wonder.

[D. Shelton]

Originally Posted by Psalad

Another issue that I like to discuss is the necessity of some of these manufactured versions of self to the creative process or going for greatness.

For example, how many artists, scientists/etc have extreme doubts in their abilities? For many people, is this manufactured version of self important to drive forward ideas and execution? How much of us have a (maybe mistaken) belief that we are better than we are? How important is that to keep us going through periods where maybe we aren't that good, until we really get good?

Maybe that idea of self knowledge is less important when you are young and inexperienced... and becomes much more important as time goes on? Certainly for me the desire for self awareness has markedly increased with age. Another reason it's painful to get old.

Again, I think a balanlce of internal anld external influences is good , to keep functioning and getting along with the world. Too much reliance on self-created models might lead to lack of awareness and ability to successfully interact and adapt, whereas not enough can leave you vulnerable to insecurity and negative manipulation by others (genrally speaking , again).

I don't get why you say seeking more self awareness with age is painful . Unless that's about facing unpleasantries () that have been avoided . I got that process moving right along back in 1988 at drug/alcohol rehab, so I'm used to looking at the ugly parts of myself . I guess it might seem less painful if someone never does it , but I'd much rather be how I am now, instead of having continued to carry around all the pain and psychological garbage I had been burdening myself with.

But I do think it's mostly impossible not to work from perspectives that are
somehow built with input from and in relation to the outside . (Altered- state internal realms being an exception). With regards to creativity , it's also almost impossible to create in a vaccuum, without inspiration from others, expectations that others will see creativity's fruits , or some desire to share those fruits . So yeah, some manufactured versions of self are basically always operating in everyone , and usually automatically .

[ewalling]

If anyone's seen the cult classic 'Performance,' the most interesting idea in it, for me, is that of identity and its illusory nature and fragility. When Mick Jagger's and Anita Pallenberg's characters provide a hideout to gangster-on-the-run James Fox, they spike him with a strong magic mushroom and proceed to take his tough-guy persona apart, revealing a tender and feminine side of which Fox had been totally unaware.

[kydave]

Originally Posted by harmonics101

This is encountered in the workplace ALL the time - those people that have a mistaken belief they have more ability than they actually have ? They get promoted to positions they have no competency for ? Chances are that these types get good are slim though - I think that percentage is in the minority.

But how common is that in reality? Do THAT many people really get promoted beyond their competency level? I'm sure there are the anecdotal examples that people like to point to, but generally businesses like to succeed and promoting an incompetent loser doesn't contribute to that.

I know in the local (although the national scene makes me wonder) music scene back in the day in a good sized city, the guys competing for the music gigs who only thought they were good did not get and KEEP a spot in the circuit. They might BS their way into a slot here & there, but pretty quickly they either cut it or didn't.

Of course then the artiste angst kicks in against the heathens who didn't realize how talented they really were.

[harmonics101]

Originally Posted by kydave

..... But how common is that in reality? Do THAT many people really get promoted beyond their competency level? I'm sure there are the anecdotal examples that people like to point to, but generally businesses like to succeed and promoting an incompetent loser doesn't contribute to that.......

You are probably right - they don't STAY promoted. They get promoted to that position - then fail miserably - leaving casualties in the department. Then get demoted back to their previous position , or resign or quit - good point there Kentucky Dave ,

H