I don't get Pre War Guitars

[rollypolly]

Originally Posted by justonwo

This thread seems to be a deliberate copy of 10,000 other AGF thread. Too bad the OP of the original copycat thread didn’t copyright his work!

OP, you’ve been a member here for a year and a half and have nearly 1,300 posts. Surely, you are aware that there are dozens (probably over a hundred) companies that are copying old Martin and Gibson designs. PW is one of many.

Sure , I’ve noticed builders use the shape and certain designs, but they do make their own touches that make them unique, whereas pre war are targeting those who want a real pre war but can’t afford it. I guess I didn’t know there’s a
Market for that even after being a member here for a while. I’ve just slowly started seeing a few posts and listings for them and that got me wondering. Still scratching my head but whatever. Different strokes I guess.

[Lefty MacGuffin]

I have two, a Single-0 in BRW and a mahogany D. I first played their guitars at NAMM in 2018 and even in a cavernous hall it was obvious these were special. I bought the Single-0 a few months later from Elderly. Bought the Model-D a year later.

Both of mine are level 1 aging meaning slight finish checking and minor wear. I am not bothered by the more drastic distressing . I find it no less authentic the the wear on my recently purchased 1959 0-18.

[Gromitspapa]

I really like the sound and look of this Pre-War:

[gmel555]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

If a person wants a pre-war guitar, Pre-War is one place to get it without the huge price tag. And a pre-war gutar is going to generally be a Martin though there are pre-war Gibsons, too. And Pre-War makes copies of those, too.

- Glenn

Agree...This is completely the crux of why people want them. IMHO it's nothing new and no big deal. People have reproductions of fine art, furniture, weapons, etc.,.....and how many "classic" autos are only 10 or 20% original, if that? The originals are either not available or too expensive. PW's also happen to be great guitars as well. There not for everyone but what is?

The fact that enough people want them, love them, use them, and are willing to pay a price that keeps PW in business tells you why they exist and do what they do...as long as Martin either doesn't care or have no recourse.

[zoopeda]

Originally Posted by rollypolly

Sure , I’ve noticed builders use the shape and certain designs, but they do make their own touches that make them unique, whereas pre war are targeting those who want a real pre war but can’t afford it. I guess I didn’t know there’s a
Market for that even after being a member here for a while. I’ve just slowly started seeing a few posts and listings for them and that got me wondering. Still scratching my head but whatever. Different strokes I guess.

No, not different strokes…at least until you play one and tell us “meh.” No way that will happen. They sound incredible and play beautifully. There’s a reason used ones sell at or above list price same day they list in the want ads. Don’t draw a conclusion until you play one. And for those who don’t like the relic thing, they offer a non relic option.

[Rosewood99]

Originally Posted by Gromitspapa

I really like the sound and look of this Pre-War:

I’ll second that opinion.

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by rollypolly

Sure , I’ve noticed builders use the shape and certain designs, but they do make their own touches that make them unique, whereas pre war are targeting those who want a real pre war but can’t afford it. I guess I didn’t know there’s a
Market for that even after being a member here for a while. I’ve just slowly started seeing a few posts and listings for them and that got me wondering. Still scratching my head but whatever. Different strokes I guess.

The small changes you’re talking about are pretty inconsequential. Collings, Santa Cruz, Huss and Dalton, those are are Martin and Gibson copies. That’s how all those companies were born: out of a desire to recreate prewar Martins and Gibsons. And there are countless luthiers pursuing the same thing.

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by rollypolly

They look just like Martins. Seem to copy everything about them. They come with a pre-worn option, which is a bizarre thing that I don't understand. They even have the little company stamp logo on the back of the headstock like Martins. I don't get it. Also, shouldn't it be against the law to sell a product that copies another in almost every way? Don't get me wrong, I love boutique guitars, small business, etc. , but come one , make something original.

I didn’t get Pre-War Guitar Company’s guitars either when I first came across them several years ago. So here’s a little story, an odyssey of sorts.

One of the first nice guitars I purchased was a reimagined Martin 000-18. I have since bought a bunch of other guitars, many of which cost much more than the 000-18, but for some reason the 000-18 has some sort of tractor beam that keeps drawing me back to it.

Like many here, I like to visit guitar shops and try out guitars. While it’s not Nashville, Manhattan has a decent number of shops, particularly if you are looking for (or just want to try out) guitars in the nosebleed high-end.

A while back I demo’ed this guitar, a 1943 Martin 000-18:



While 1943 Martins are not as coveted as those built in the 1930s, they are still among the finest guitars ever made. Playing this guitar, I could tell the obvious tonal lineage between my 000-18 and its great, great grandfather, so to speak. But just picking the guitar up, it felt like it weighed half as much as my 000-18. Pretty much every piece of wood on the 1943—except for the neck—is thinner and/or lighter than on a reimagined Martin, and it felt and sounded like all of the moisture had been sucked out of it over the last 80 years. And when you plucked, picked or strummed the strings, it was as if the guitar was alive—the guitar vibrated like it had a ToneRite attached to it. Strum it hard, and it kicks you like a mule. Playing this guitar and several other vintage Martins made me realize why these guitars are so sought after. Even in 80 years, a reimagined 000-18 won’t sound as good, because even though it is lightly built, it is still overbuilt by comparison.

There were only two things wrong with the guitar, first, it was right-handed (I’m a lefty), and second, this:



As much as I love guitars, I’m just not prepared to spend even a fraction of that on a guitar. Perhaps I’m lucky that I’m left-handed, because I can’t succumb to this kind of temptation.

Here are a couple of short samples that capture the tone of 000-18s from this period pretty well (listen through headphones or good speaker):





^ That guitar is one of those that a professional guitarist searches for to find their sound. I have a hypothesis that the more a guitar vibrates in his hands, the more Carl Miner moves his head.

And a not so short review:



That experience set me on a quest, to find a guitar that got as close as possible to that 1943 000-18. As others have noted, lots of companies make guitars that are based on, if not copies of, Martin (and Gibson) designs. Collings, Santa Cruz, Bourgeois, Huss & Dalton, etc., not to mention dozens of solo luthiers. Some guitars are meant to be very close sonically, and others have their own spin (as an example, within a single company, Collings has both their regular guitars and their traditional line). I demo’ed guitars from many of those companies, and tried guitars at multiple guitar shows (Artisan, Fretboard Summit and Woodstock).

There are a lot of amazing guitars out there. But of all the guitars I tried, the ones that—for me—came closest to recreating the sensation of a vintage Martin were the Martin Authentic Aged guitars and guitars made by PWGC.

With those two choices, I really wanted to get the Martin, since, after all, I was copying a Martin. I first tried to find a left-handed 000-18 Authentic, to no avail. My next avenue was to see if I could order one through a Custom Expert dealer. After spec’ing all of the authentic specs (authentic top thickness, authentic brace scalloping, thin nitro finish, hot hide glue construction, glue-in saddle, even the pickguard under the finish), the guitar would have been twice as much as a PWGC guitar. In the end, I gave in and ordered a 000 mahogany from PWGC. It’s about twice as expensive as a reimagined 000-18, but it is way, way closer to that 1943 000-18 than a reimagined 000-18.

While the recording is a compressed YouTube video, listen to the tone of the 000 in this video:



Around 1:10 in, Bryan Sutton gives a little description of the guitar and the company. As he says, they have cracked the code. What you don’t get from the video is how the guitar vibrates in your hands and against your body when you play it—it is uncanny.

I ordered mine with “level 1” or the lightest distressing, but may go higher when my number comes up.

Anyway, this isn’t necessarily going to convince anyone who is dead-set against vintage copies, faux play wear, etc., but perhaps gives some insight into why PWGC has a wait list of over two years. Even with their recent price increase, their guitars are relative bargains for what you get.

A few more for the road:







Try one, you might just like it, and see what the fuss is all about. Or maybe not, and that’s ok, too.

[sinistral]

Oh, and a post-script on a couple of points—I’m not sure when Martin made its first Authentic guitars, but it was way before the Pre-War Guitar Company came into existence (which I think was 2016 or so). Here is a Martin catalogue form 2007, and even then Martin had four lines that paid homage to their vintage guitars—Authentic, Golden Era, Marquis and Vintage:

Martin Catalogue—2007

Over the years, the Authentics have gotten more authentic (in my opinion), and one could argue that the current crop is among the best, likely due to the competition from companies like PWGC.

The other point is that, even Chris Martin acknowledges in interviews and talks that, if Martin had patented all of their iconic designs, the patents would have long since expired. He will note that imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

[hubcapsc]

Originally Posted by Monts

Agree, I have a 1937 with Stage 1 aging, that mark in the first picture looks out of character in comparison to mine and the other ones that I have seen. Maybe it's an actual scuff from the factory? Well...that's the convenient part of owning a guitar that is aged/relic'd, it doesn't matter, it still looks great! Haha!

I'm pretty sure that they automate the bus-dragging somehow and that
you could see that mark in any arbitrary picture of a 2020 model D-18 1939 AA ...

https://www.guitarcenter.com/Martin/...RoC21gQAvD_BwE

-Mike

[davidd]

A guitar doesn't know if it is a Martin, Gibson, Pre-War or Yamaha. A guitar doesn't know where it was made or by whom. Whether it is glossy without a scratch or slightly beat up. A guitar is a bunch of odds and sods glued and stuck together and either does the job or it doesn't.

If a violinist craves a Stradivarius but can't afford one that person hunts for the next best thing that is affordable. That is the Pre-War market. I'm not a fan of overly relic'd guitars, but tastefully aged is an altogether different story. Having a few bumps and bruises takes the nervousness away from using the guitar as it is intended to be used. I speak from experience owning far too many guitars. The couple that I have that have mild artificial aging don't get the precious treatment from me like my pristine ones do.

[Mr. Jelly]

Martin did not invent the acoustic guitar. Martin guitars have evolved in many small details over many years. Don't confuse market share with anything other than it is. It doesn't prove a thing except good marketing.

[Jwills57]

I think it's super cool we live in an age when people have lots of great choices in guitars and can pretty much buy whatever they want, to the limits of their pocketbooks. Pre-War, Collings, Huss & Dalton, Martin, Gibson--whatever floats your boat, you can find. And there are a number of companies that are making great guitars, resembling those of the companies I mentioned, that can be had for under three grand. So for guitar lovers it's a wonderful time to be living. I'm having a couple of OM guitars made the up-and-coming Scottish luthier Oska Burman, and I ordered from him precisely because I didn't want copies of the traditional American-style guitar. Buy what you like and play the music that moves you, I say.

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

Martin did not invent the acoustic guitar. Martin guitars have evolved in many small details over many years. Don't confuse market share with anything other than it is. It doesn't prove a thing except good marketing.

True, Martin didn’t invent the the acoustic guitar, and they would be the first to tell you so. But some of the most popular designs of guitars—in particular, the 00, 000, OM and dreadnought—are very much Martin designs, just as the L-00 or SJs are Gibson designs. And the refinement of the X-brace is something Martin pioneered in the mid to late 19th century. It’s a lot more than just marketing.

[rollypolly]

Sounds like Pre War knew they could make money building Martin guitars because people want pre war Martins. They're not building Martins, they're building Pre Wars, and now Martin makes pre war Martins.

Yes I have spare time on my hands. Now back to playing my non Pre War, post war but pre current war Martin.