Manufactured guitars vs. handbuilt

[HHP]

Just to clarify my statement about significant recordings. I refer to music that substantially changed music or the way people played it. To list some names I have in mind would be Charley Patton, Robert Johnson, Blind Blake, Merle Travis, The Ventures, Dick Dale, John Fahey, Leo Kottke, The Beatles, Buddy Holly, Eric Clapton, Jimi Hendrix, Clarence White, Doc Watson. All of these did their most significant work on factory instruments ranging from pretty bad to excellent quality.

My point was that great music does not require great instruments. Again, buy and use whatever makes you enjoy playing.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by JohnRII

...So perhaps I shouldn't have upgraded from the Yamaha FG-365SII to the Taylor 910 in the first place. And certainly I shouldn't be spending even more money on a customized guitar. All I really have to do is practice several hours a day (which I don't have) and maybe in a couple of decades I'll actually be a somewhat better player.
...Evidently, I'm laboring under the delusion that spending money on a guitar made by a small production luthier will help me overcome these shortcomings.
I don't care. I'm buying the guitar anyway because I can afford it, I want it and it's going to be fantastic.

Hi John...
Is your tongue in your cheek? I like the way you were thinking and sharing here...

[vti814ce]

Originally Posted by Jeff M

People who hear a piece of acoustic guitar music..... even other guitar players....., could care less who made the guitar they are listening to.
The vast majority of them couldn't tell an Olson from a Blueridge.
What they care about is how well a piece of music is played.

Some folks believe that, in general, custom made instruments sound and play better than non-custom made. Others (those lucky ones) can't tell any difference.
Trying to convince somebody that one is or is not "better" than another is like trying to argue religion with somebody.
When you buy an acoustic guitar, whether it is an Estaban or an Olson, you are buying it to please one person ......yourself. As long as you are pleased with it, it's "worth it".

That I completely agree with!

[vti814ce]

[QUOTE=worshipguitar;1346466]this is a Timex versus Rolex argument.
I can actually argue that a Timex is a far superior watch in time keeping....
Why are certain paintings worth so much money? are they prettier?
The variables are innumerable.


I own a Rolex, and I guarantee that in purely consistant time keeping, a $59.00 Timex is superior to a $4,200 Rolex. Take off your Rolex and put in the box on Tuesday, Saturday take it out to wear. It stopped keeping time on Friday morning. Perpetual Motion and a winding mechanism must be maintained and your rolex will start right back up and keep exact time to the Millisecond, as long as your wrist is moving and or winding it every otherday. Timex, put the battery in, set the time come back 2 years later and its still got the correct time or close to it.
Its all what your wants and needs are, I think guitars fit that way as well.

Sammy

[AndrewG]

duplicate post

[Kevin A]

[QUOTE=vti814ce;1346592]

Originally Posted by worshipguitar

Timex, put the battery in, set the time come back 2 years later and its still got the correct time or close to it. Its all what your wants and needs are, I think guitars fit that way as well.
Sammy

My guitars keep terrible time. Or maybe it's just the player behind it!

[AndrewG]

[QUOTE=vti814ce;1346592]

Originally Posted by worshipguitar

this is a Timex versus Rolex argument.
I can actually argue that a Timex is a far superior watch in time keeping....
Why are certain paintings worth so much money? are they prettier?
The variables are innumerable.


I own a Rolex, and I guarantee that in purely consistant time keeping, a $59.00 Timex is superior to a $4,200 Rolex. Take off your Rolex and put in the box on Tuesday, Saturday take it out to wear. It stopped keeping time on Friday morning. Perpetual Motion and a winding mechanism must be maintained and your rolex will start right back up and keep exact time to the Millisecond, as long as your wrist is moving and or winding it every otherday. Timex, put the battery in, set the time come back 2 years later and its still got the correct time or close to it.
Its all what your wants and needs are, I think guitars fit that way as well.

Sammy

Yep, my Explorer won't give a Timex any headaches in a timekeeping contest-not sure its accurate to a millisecond though-a couple of seconds a day, yes.

[vti814ce]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Andrew...
I've deliberately chosen inferior instruments for recordings occasionally, just for the ''funky'' sound they sometimes add to a track or two.

Hi lj,
By what criteria are you labeling a paticular instument inferior? Are you speaking of acoustic guitars, or a completely different type of musical instrument? I was curious what you might feel is an inferior instument?
Thanks Larry,

Sammy

[vti814ce]

Originally Posted by HHP

Just to clarify my statement about significant recordings. I refer to music that substantially changed music or the way people played it. To list some names I have in mind would be Charley Patton, Robert Johnson, Blind Blake, Merle Travis, The Ventures, Dick Dale, John Fahey, Leo Kottke, The Beatles, Buddy Holly, Eric Clapton, Jimi Hendrix, Clarence White, Doc Watson. All of these did their most significant work on factory instruments ranging from pretty bad to excellent quality.

My point was that great music does not require great instruments. Again, buy and use whatever makes you enjoy playing.

I knew what you meant. I think you are correct too in the context of what you were saying. Beatles recorded with Epi's, Steve Miller on a Martin D-18, Robert Johnson likely would have given anything to have something as nice a modern $75.00 Jasmine s-35 with all 6 strings in working order when he started out.

Buy what you like, like what you buy and love it!
Hand mades are awsome! But so are alot of factory high end and medium level guitars.

Sammy

[690MBCOMMANDO]

[QUOTE=vti814ce;1346592]

Originally Posted by worshipguitar

this is a Timex versus Rolex argument.
I can actually argue that a Timex is a far superior watch in time keeping....
Why are certain paintings worth so much money? are they prettier?
The variables are innumerable.


I own a Rolex, and I guarantee that in purely consistant time keeping, a $59.00 Timex is superior to a $4,200 Rolex. Take off your Rolex and put in the box on Tuesday, Saturday take it out to wear. It stopped keeping time on Friday morning. Perpetual Motion and a winding mechanism must be maintained and your rolex will start right back up and keep exact time to the Millisecond, as long as your wrist is moving and or winding it every otherday. Timex, put the battery in, set the time come back 2 years later and its still got the correct time or close to it.
Its all what your wants and needs are, I think guitars fit that way as well.

Sammy

LOL. I just had to wind my Plat Yacht Master tonight since I didn't wear it new years. Darn perpetual movement.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by vti814ce

Hi lj,
By what criteria are you labeling a paticular instument inferior? Are you speaking of acoustic guitars, or a completely different type of musical instrument? I was curious what you might feel is an inferior instument?
Thanks Larry,

Hi Sammy...
Some I've used:
An old Yamaha all laminate from the 1980s, and an old grungy ''Made in Japan'' small body all laminate from the 1960s, and a Jasmine all laminate cutaway for starters.

I've also hi-strung (Nasville stringing) various student models to record with.

[rforman15]

Nice thread. There are so many angles to the factory versus boutique versus single builder debate that I won't even delve into that, not yet at least, but I will say that the two Martins I have owned (newer ones) sound as good or better than the several boutique and single luthier built guitars and the several vintage guitars I have owned. The Martins are just as good or arguably better. The best Martin guitars being built today are as good and maybe better than any guitar past or present. I mean steel string guitars specifically. Martin Guitars has been in business, continuously, since 1833, and under the same management/ownership. That is their competitive advantage. They know how to make guitars. Martin Guitars has a consistent and distinctive voice. * that is to say, grasshopper, not to focus on the process of building but rather on the product: the guitar.

[vti814ce]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Sammy...
Some I've used:
An old Yamaha all laminate from the 1980s, and an old grungy ''Made in Japan'' small body all laminate from the 1960s, and a Jasmine all laminate cutaway for starters.

I've also hi-strung (Nasville stringing) various student models to record with.

I see, looking for a little rougher harder acoustic sound?

Sammy

[bitsmith]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

... the luthier built model will provide a far greater probablility for a superior instrument specifically owing to the fact, unlike mass producing a car where each car part is theoretically the same, guitars are constructed of unique pieces of wood, not only unique accross a single species, but, also, unique piece to piece.

I've often wondered about this. What specific changes do luthiers make to adapt their construction of a guitar to the idiosyncrasies of the specific pieces of wood used to build that guitar? I can imagine that they might, for example, change bracing patterns, or change the size and/or tapering of braces, or vary the thickness of the top. Is someone sufficiently familiar with this to be able to list the specific types of adjustments that are typically made? That is, what aspects of the wood do luthiers take into account (e.g., density, stiffness, grain, etc.), and how do they change their construction technique based on their observation of these characteristics?

Another point I've wondered about is whether luthiers are generally in agreement concerning how to make such adjustments, or whether their approaches are highly individual. It's certainly clear from numerous threads that AGF members have a wide range of opinions concerning what factors most affect the sound of an acoustic guitar, and I'm curious whether luthiers' opinions are similarly diverse.

Bryan

[Tony Burns]

Everything is a matter of opinion - their are superior Factory mades and some handbuilts that are less than pro ( new builders or just dogs ) Factory built might mean to some that their are many pros building your guitar , making it practically perfect , or the philosophy that one person who is a master makes a one of a kind masterpiece . i guess its what ever floats your boat . i have two handbuilts - a Greven Jumbo and a Boak Dread - as well as many top end factory models --- i am very happy with each in its own way - I guess you also start another discussion about the best wood - but that is also depending on who builds your guitar - some makers can screw the sound even when you give them Brazilian rosewood and others who make that truly remarkable " angelic voiced Instrument " made of East Indian or Walnut- etc. so my suggestion is not to get me going on the who makes the best etc-- Peace !