ToneDexter Thread (continuation of original thread)

[varmonter]

i am relatively new to the tonedexter. i have only played it out twice.
i think it sounds ok so far not great but ok. i am thinking i need to play with it
more . but i have a slight midrange overtone that sounds a bit out of phase
or phase "shifty" if you will. sounds quite processed to me. i am not sure how
to fix this. anyone else experience this?? i am using a kk mini pup. i used an sm81 mic
a at4040 condensor and a mxl 603s in building wavemaps. one at a time of course.
i also built some mandolin wavemaps . and when i play my
guitar through these i got some pretty interesting sonic results.
I am thinking of adding some overdrive and getting a "strat or tele sound".. ha

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by varmonter

i am relatively new to the tonedexter. i have only played it out twice.
i think it sounds ok so far not great but ok. i am thinking i need to play with it
more . but i have a slight midrange overtone that sounds a bit out of phase
or phase "shifty" if you will. sounds quite processed to me. i am not sure how
to fix this. anyone else experience this?? i am using a kk mini pup. i used an sm81 mic
a at4040 condensor and a mxl 603s in building wavemaps. one at a time of course.
i also built some mandolin wavemaps . and when i play my
guitar through these i got some pretty interesting sonic results.
I am thinking of adding some overdrive and getting a "strat or tele sound".. ha

It could have something to do with your mic placement? I will admit that the first time I tried the Tonedexter, I wasn't overly impressed with the results. However, I played around with the mic positioning and it completely fixed my problems. Remember to that the new software update has a blend control feature. That could help to cut back the wavemap just a bit to take out some of those mid rangey tones that you are hearing.

[rb1591]

Regarding "out of phase or phase 'shifty,'" sound, I got this too, so I reviewed what the manual section about the phase switch (p.12).

When you’re training with headphones, the sound of the headphone signal will combine with the acoustic leakage path to your ear. The “correct” phase will be the one that has the most perceived bass, the other position will sound more anemic. Headphones vary, so try both positions. The position of the phase switch does not affect training, only your perception of the sound.

Could that be part of your problem?

Also, in another thread I reported that despite the fact that apparently most folks were using the K&K with the TD, I was more pleased with results from other pickups, including the Dtar Wavelength, a UST, the Barbera Soloist (in bridge type) and the Baggs LB6 (in bridge type).

I've decided that not all guitars sound good with STBs, even excellent pickups like the K&K. The same characteristics that I did not like about the K&K in my Spruce/Rosewood dreadnaught (muddy midrange) were also apparent when using that same pickup with the TD.

Hope this helps.

[The Arborist]

I would like to hear from anyone that has gigged with tonedexter k & k combination. Is the feedback more or less the same as before using tonedexter..
Any info on live use of tonedexter notch and anyone using a soundhole plug..
I know that I will buy tonedexter but just postponing the inevitable while I gather info. Unfortunately I just recently changed my preamp (got newer headway EDB2) and like many of you I would love to end the endless and costly tinkering for minimal improvement.

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by The Arborist

I would like to hear from anyone that has gigged with tonedexter k & k combination. Is the feedback more or less the same as before using tonedexter..
Any info on live use of tonedexter notch and anyone using a soundhole plug..
I know that I will buy tonedexter but just postponing the inevitable while I gather info. Unfortunately I just recently changed my preamp (got newer headway EDB2) and like many of you I would love to end the endless and costly tinkering for minimal improvement.

I currently gig with a K&K equipped Martin CEO7 through a Tonedexter. I play with a six person band using 3-4 stage monitors. The stage volume is medium to medium-low.

Feedback just hasn't been a huge issue.

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by The Arborist

I would like to hear from anyone that has gigged with tonedexter k & k combination. Is the feedback more or less the same as before using tonedexter..
Any info on live use of tonedexter notch and anyone using a soundhole plug..
I know that I will buy tonedexter but just postponing the inevitable while I gather info. Unfortunately I just recently changed my preamp (got newer headway EDB2) and like many of you I would love to end the endless and costly tinkering for minimal improvement.

when i first got my kk i had some feedback issues.
i have since learned to dial back that low mid
rumble. also my stage volume is under control.
the rubber plug works well. but i don't need it
any more. i've done a few gigs with the TD but
can't really comment as i still need to work with it.
but no feedback issues with it yet.

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by rb1591

Regarding "out of phase or phase 'shifty,'" sound, I got this too, so I reviewed what the manual section about the phase switch (p.12).

When you’re training with headphones, the sound of the headphone signal will combine with the acoustic leakage path to your ear. The “correct” phase will be the one that has the most perceived bass, the other position will sound more anemic. Headphones vary, so try both positions. The position of the phase switch does not affect training, only your perception of the sound.

Could that be part of your problem?

Also, in another thread I reported that despite the fact that apparently most folks were using the K&K with the TD, I was more pleased with results from other pickups, including the Dtar Wavelength, a UST, the Barbera Soloist (in bridge type) and the Baggs LB6 (in bridge type).

I've decided that not all guitars sound good with STBs, even excellent pickups like the K&K. The same characteristics that I did not like about the K&K in my Spruce/Rosewood dreadnaught (muddy midrange) were also apparent when using that same pickup with the TD.

Hope this helps.

yes this pertains to the training portion. I have
done this. The phase "shifty" sound i hear is
live at a gig. this quote from the manual pertains to what one "hears" during training.
in regards to the other pups ..I bought the TD because it works well
with the kk .. from what i've read here and elsewhere.
So i am not going to drop another dime to make the 400 dollar TD
sound better. i had a pretty sweet sound with my sunrise and
felix. But thanks for the recommendation.The TD is just another toy(wife's term) i am experimenting
with. I think i will get it to work ..i just need more time gigging out
with it.

[midwinter]

Originally Posted by The Arborist

I would like to hear from anyone that has gigged with tonedexter k & k combination. Is the feedback more or less the same as before using tonedexter..

I probably had 20 gigs with the TD and my JJB-equipped instruments before I went back to my old rig (which had nothing to do with its sound). No issues with feedback.

[jimbosyn]

Why did you stop gigging with it and go back to your old rig?

[midwinter]

Originally Posted by jimbosyn

Why did you stop gigging with it and go back to your old rig?

I normally submix a minimum of 3 instruments (usually guitar, banjo, mandolin), and I was hoping that the TD would allow me to replace my entire submix rig (preamps, tuners, mixer) with one pedal. It sounds great, but there are a number of times where I need to switch instruments during a song—and sometimes multiple times (switching from banjo to mandolin and then back to banjo).

The TD didn't have an easy way for me to do that with just a footswitch; I kept having to mute, bend down and manually turn the selector with my hand, get back up, switch instruments, etc.

It's just easier with my old rig, where I can do everything with a couple of foot taps—if it's banjo/mandolin, switching is just one toe tap on a PZ Pre. If it's guitar to something else, that's a tap on the Venue and an unmute on the PZ Pre.

I corresponded with James early on about the absence of an up/down footswitch and he said it was a design/cost decision they made early on. If the TD would allow me to switch among presets with a footswitch, I'd probably go back to it just because it so drastically simplified my pedalboard (although it would be nice if the gain/volume settings for each preset were savable).

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by midwinter

I normally submix a minimum of 3 instruments (usually guitar, banjo, mandolin), and I was hoping that the TD would allow me to replace my entire submix rig (preamps, tuners, mixer) with one pedal. It sounds great, but there are a number of times where I need to switch instruments during a song—and sometimes multiple times (switching from banjo to mandolin and then back to banjo).

The TD didn't have an easy way for me to do that with just a footswitch; I kept having to mute, bend down and manually turn the selector with my hand, get back up, switch instruments, etc.

It's just easier with my old rig, where I can do everything with a couple of foot taps—if it's banjo/mandolin, switching is just one toe tap on a PZ Pre. If it's guitar to something else, that's a tap on the Venue and an unmute on the PZ Pre.

I corresponded with James early on about the absence of an up/down footswitch and he said it was a design decision/cost they made early on. If the TD would allow me to switch among presets with a footswitch, I'd probably go back to it just because it so drastically simplified my pedalboard (although it would be nice if the gain/volume settings for each preset were savable).

I have a similar set up. I play mandolin, octave mandolin and guitar. I normally use the Felix for my mandolin and guitar and then a separate di for my octave mandolin (typically the aura with all images off or the radial pz deluxe). I recently got the Tonedexter and really like it. I too would love an up/down switch. However, I decided that for me, the acoustic guitar is the most difficult instrument to make sound good. With my octave mandolin, I have a headway pickup that just sounds huge when plugged in. Live it sounds very natural. My mandolin is the godin a8 so it too as a nice amplified tone. I decided to just use my felix for the mandolins and the Tonedexter for my guitar. Sucks that I can't use the Tonedexter for all three but I am still happy.

One thing I have wanted to try is putting the Tonedexter through the effects loop of the Felix. I am not sure if that would work but it's worth a shot. Wouldn't help me if I needed to change instruments quickly but I typically don't change during a song. There are also cheap devices you can get for turning knobs with your feet. They attach to the normal knob. That could be a way to change through the slots

[midwinter]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

However, I decided that for me, the acoustic guitar is the most difficult instrument to make sound good. With my octave mandolin, I have a headway pickup that just sounds huge when plugged in. Live it sounds very natural. My mandolin is the godin a8 so it too as a nice amplified tone. I decided to just use my felix for the mandolins and the Tonedexter for my guitar. Sucks that I can't use the Tonedexter for all three but I am still happy.

It occurs to me that I should just replace my Baggs Venue (see my thread about THAT) with the TD on my board, since I only use the Venue for my guitar.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by midwinter

It occurs to me that I should just replace my Baggs Venue (see my thread about THAT) with the TD on my board, since I only use the Venue for my guitar.

That would definitely make for a better set up. I think too that the added blend control (software update) will help to make the Tonedexter even more usable live. For years I tried to get the most natural amplified tone possible and I came to one conclusion.. the most natural tone does not always work well live. I think the TD at 100% wavemap still sounds fantastic but even dialing it back by 5-15% would really help to create a natural but usable tone.

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by midwinter

I normally submix a minimum of 3 instruments (usually guitar, banjo, mandolin), and I was hoping that the TD would allow me to replace my entire submix rig (preamps, tuners, mixer) with one pedal. It sounds great, but there are a number of times where I need to switch instruments during a song—and sometimes multiple times (switching from banjo to mandolin and then back to banjo).

The TD didn't have an easy way for me to do that with just a footswitch; I kept having to mute, bend down and manually turn the selector with my hand, get back up, switch instruments, etc.

It's just easier with my old rig, where I can do everything with a couple of foot taps—if it's banjo/mandolin, switching is just one toe tap on a PZ Pre. If it's guitar to something else, that's a tap on the Venue and an unmute on the PZ Pre.

I corresponded with James early on about the absence of an up/down footswitch and he said it was a design/cost decision they made early on. If the TD would allow me to switch among presets with a footswitch, I'd probably go back to it just because it so drastically simplified my pedalboard (although it would be nice if the gain/volume settings for each preset were savable).

This is kind of where i am at with the TD right
now. After one live performance with the band i realized
there may be too much messing around when switching
inst. i go from guitar to mandolin. each wavemap requires
a bit of tweaking. the mando is not as hot as the guitar.
So i have to bend over switch wavemaps adjust eq settings
and input and output settings every time i switch instruments.
perhaps a two channel tonedexter would be more to my liking. (James?)
i will probably go back to the felix. But i am going to mess with
the TD for a couple more gigs. It is such an interesting unit.
I may have to set up my pa to retrain ... as what i hear in the headphones
is not exactly what i hear live ..board and qsc k10.
i've read a couple of posts here where folks were thinking
of running the TD through the effects loop of their felix or alix.
Has anyone done this and what did you think? I would think you would have
to be cautious of the gain staging. But this would eliminate the
constant remix everytime i switch instruments. i would just have to
switch wavemaps.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by varmonter

This is kind of where i am at with the TD right
now. After one live performance with the band i realized
there may be too much messing around when switching
inst. i go from guitar to mandolin. each wavemap requires
a bit of tweaking. the mando is not as hot as the guitar.
So i have to bend over switch wavemaps adjust eq settings
and input and output settings every time i switch instruments.
perhaps a two channel tonedexter would be more to my liking. (James?)
i will probably go back to the felix. But i am going to mess with
the TD for a couple more gigs. It is such an interesting unit.
I may have to set up my pa to retrain ... as what i hear in the headphones
is not exactly what i hear live ..board and qsc k10.
i've read a couple of posts here where folks were thinking
of running the TD through the effects loop of their felix or alix.
Has anyone done this and what did you think? I would think you would have
to be cautious of the gain staging. But this would eliminate the
constant remix everytime i switch instruments. i would just have to
switch wavemaps.

I will give the effects loop idea a try this week and report back. As for multiple instruments, here's my take on it. As mentioned, I too play mandolin (octave as well). For me, I would love to have all three through the Tonedexter but even if I can't do that, I am just happy to have my guitar going through it. I personally find that guitar is difficult to make sound good live with a piezo style pickup. It's just always apparent that it's a pickup. For whatever reason, mandolins don't always have that issue. They can sound very, very good with even just a bridge transducer or something like the K&K. Obviously having more than one preamp/di is a bummer but it's just one view.