|
|
#1
01-17-2018, 04:15 PM
|
|||
|
|||
spruce type differences
Is anyone aware of any resource related to how different types of spruce characteristically sound and age? For example, what would be the notable difference between sitka, engleman, Adirondack, lutz, European spruce tops? Thanks.
|
|
#2
01-17-2018, 04:30 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
http://www.esomogyi.com/tonewoods.html
http://acousticguitar.com/a-tonewood...optimal-sound/ I believe the last one contains the full article by Dana. Of course you can check company websites. I find Taylor's and Breedlove's descriptions to be informative
|
|
#4
01-18-2018, 11:08 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Keep in mind that those are opinions. Even very experienced makers tend to hear what they expect to hear, and there is almost no data from things like blind listening tests to substantiate any of that. I know I'm 'shoveling s(and) against the tide' here, but paying a premium for some 'magic' wood or another may not be, and probably is not, a 'sound' investment, in any sense of the word.
|
|
#7
01-18-2018, 08:51 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
I am a carver. At a class I was given a piece of mahogany to carve, as was everyone else in the class. My piece cut like butter. The grain was perfect. The others, not so good. These were all from the same log.
Based on this experience, I am not so sure that there is an answer. Each piece is different.
|
|
#8
01-18-2018, 09:14 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
PLEASE keep shoveling!!! And...if you have it saved somewhere, could you re-post your initial answer from last weeks thread of the same basic question. That was a superbly explained and nicely definitive missive. Also...do you still have the quote of yours, from a few years ago here on the AGF...on these same type of threads...where you ended your answer with a supreme paragraph that ended with the sentence that went something about "...and everything else is just fuzzy borders and marketing" If you still have or remember that memorable paragraph, could you add that to last weeks explanation as well...and then just save the whole thing...and cut and paste it in to these threads when they pop up. You will make the world see good sir...you will!!! One grain of sand at a time...one forest for one tree at a time!!! Oh...and John Greven sends his good wishes and a howdy {;-)...and he agrees with you completely on this matter! duff Be A Player...Not A Polisher
|
|
#9
01-18-2018, 09:17 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
duff Be A Player...Not A Polisher
|
|
#10
01-19-2018, 06:39 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
There is too much overlap when it comes to characteristics for any hard and fast rules. You also have to factor in the skill of the builder and their intent with the instrument in the first place. Wood of any genus is a source of potential with superficial characteristics as well as latent ones. There is no general consensus in the same way as there is no general consensus on chicken/fish
MDW
__________________
www.michaelwattsguitar.com Album Recording Diary Skype Lessons Luthier Stories YouTube iTunes Guitars by Jason Kostal, Strings by Elixir, Gefell Mics and a nail buffer.
|
|
#11
01-19-2018, 07:36 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
I asked a similar question last week. The thread is full of good imformation;
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=496133
|
|
#12
01-19-2018, 09:37 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
From Alan Carruth: "There are two schools of thought on this. One, prevalent on these groups, is that there are pervasive and often large differences between different varieties of top wood, and even between pieces of the same species grown in different places. The claim is that a practiced ear can pick them out quite reliably, and that some are so different that anybody should be able to hear it. This belief is widespread, and even general, among players, and is fostered by some respected makers. Some of us, a distinct minority, hold that there can be large differences between pieces of wood that will impact the sound, and that there is some correlation between species and properties, such that some species tend on the average, to be a bit denser or stiffer than others. However, the range of variation is so wide that it's not at all difficult to find examples of any species that are close to the extremes on either end of almost any property you care to name. The one broad divide I would allow would be between the 'spruces' as one group (including things like Western Hemlock and Fir), and Western Red cedar and Redwood on the other. The latter group usually has much lower damping than the spruces in general, although once in a while.... The problem is two fold. One part is that people will tend to hear what they expect to hear. If you tell somebody that the top on a particular guitar is the 'magic wood du jour' they will hear it that way. I know of no properly done 'blind' test where listeners or players were able to pick out the species of top wood. The other pert of the problem is that it's extremely difficult, and may simply be impossible, to deliberately build two guitars that are 'identical', even when you use 'the same' wood. Guitars are so complex, and human hearing is so good at picking out small differences, that local changes in things like grain direction in a top can alter the tone in ways that are very hard to measure and control but seem easy for people to hear. Thus it's not likely that we will ever see the sort of experiment where two guitars with different species of top wood that have been matched for properties and measure out similarly will be compared side by side to find out what difference the species actually makes. The only other scientifically valid method of determining whether such differences really exist would be to make several hundred instruments, using very good quality control so that they are structurally 'identical', using woods that have had their properties carefully measured. Then you could do multivariate statistical analysis of the results of 'blind' listening and playing tests to find if there really is any attribute that could be assigned to one or another species. A company such as Martin or Taylor could do this, but it would be very expensive and it's not in their interest. The upshot, then, is that you're going to get a lot of opinion on this, but not much that can be held up as 'fact' IMO. It's not that anybody is actively trying to scam you here; it's just that, as we see in so many things, it's very difficult to get around pervasive beliefs, no matter how well or ill founded. OTOH, since you'll most likely hear what you expect to hear once you've been properly indoctrinated, it won't matter whether it's 'true' in any objective sense anyway." duff Be A Player...Not A Polisher
|
|
#13
01-19-2018, 10:00 AM
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
I've played a lot of really decent guitars in the last 50+ years, and my experience is it's pretty much all about the builder. Same spruce can sound so different from different builders. Wood is not consistent. In fact it's very different from sets cut from the same log - even sets cut side by side from the same log. Density, and stiffness can vary radically. So do the guitars built with similar/identical wood combinations. It's interesting how different a top end Taylor Dreadnought and Martin Dreadnought both built with Rosewood/Sitka can sound side by side.
__________________
Baby #1.1 Baby #1.2 Baby #02 Baby #03 Baby #04 Baby #05 Larry's songs... …Just because you've argued someone into silence doesn't mean you have convinced them…
|
|
#14
01-19-2018, 01:09 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Tommy G wrote:
"Blind listening tests mask the more precise accounting that has a lot to do with psycho acoustic 'feel'. " I'm not at all sure what 'pschyo acoustic 'feel'' is exactly. Please explain. .
|
