#16
|
|||
|
|||
Very grateful for the wonderful insights and tutorials regularly offered to novices like me from AGF's more knowledgeable members.
__________________
My YouTube Page: http://www.youtube.com/user/ukejon 2014 Pono N30 DC EIR/Spruce crossover 2009 Pono koa parlor (NAMM prototype) 2018 Maton EBG808TEC 2014 Hatcher Greta 13 fret cutaway in EIR/cedar 2017 Hatcher Josie fan fret mahogany 1973 Sigma GCR7 (OM model) rosewood and spruce 2014 Rainsong OM1000N2 ....and about 5 really nice tenor ukuleles at any given moment |
#17
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#18
|
||||
|
||||
I think MS does a great job of giving the article author what he's looking for - centered, focused, phase coherent, mono-compatible, yet as big and wide a sound as you wish.
The most convincing aspect of his argument might be the bit about affording one good mic, but even there, I'm not totally convinced. There are so many perfectly acceptable inexpensive mice out there, and stereo is usually enough more compelling, that most people would probably prefer a good stereo recording with a pair of inexpensive mics to a mono recording with a better mic. Of course, I know there's been some discussion here on AGF from people who are fans of mono, which is fine, too. Whatever sound you're going for... But I think in most cases real mic techniques, mono or stereo, trump simulated approaches.
__________________
Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#19
|
||||
|
||||
Doug thanks for doing that, couple of quick observations. What I did was listen to just the last sections quickly back and forth on all three tracks agree the MS stereo track does come out more. But I wonder though if perhaps it is not also just ever so slightly louder ? being two mics and to my ear especially if compared back and forth between the MS and article version it does actually to me sound a bit louder. And in going quickly between all 4 the article version actually sounds a bit softer then the other three. I am certain this is not intentional but it does highlight what a bugger level matching can be
Also it is interesting and doing the same focus on the last section, to my ears between the straight mono and MS while I can hear more resonance (could be phase) in the MS and it is no doubt a great sound. I am not certain it is also not just ever so slightly less distinct on actual detail . In truth though all 4 are actually very nice totally usable recordings I 'll listen on my studio set up later
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 |
#20
|
||||
|
||||
I didn't check the level matching, but since it was the same exact recording, I just let Logic normalize all the tracks when I exported them. So unless I made a mistake, all takes should peak at 0db. It is possible that with the differences in the stereo processing that that results in one being a different overall level - perceived loudness rather than the peak, tho I'd expect it to be close. But I think it's better to just check out the differences in stereo image between these, than to try to AB them to decide which sounds "best"
It's really tough to truly match the levels of something like a mono vs a stereo track - even if the meters say they're identical, they may come across differently. You run into that with the GP approach, with balance, for example. I just tried to make another stab at balancing the stereo of that version, and because there is so much more power in the lows on one side, and very little but string squeaks on the other, my ears and the meters don't agree on when it sounds balanced.
__________________
Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#21
|
||||
|
||||
Yes and it very well could be perceived more than actual level
but honestly when popping back and forth for just the first few seconds on the last sections, it (MS) seems louder particularly to the GP . I actually have no particular preference in terms of 1 or 2 mics. I use and do like both methods, I do not however at this time have a matched pair. Only having 1 Schoeps and 1 Brauner . So am I correct in assuming you prefer MS for stereo ? I agree I might like the mono run through the M7 better than the logic or gp
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 |
#22
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Doug, you've done that "recording thing" before, haven't you! |
#23
|
||||
|
||||
Just checked this out and I think what's going on is that because the sound's very different on each side, the normalizing is triggering on a peak on the left that isn't there on the right, reducing the level on the GP track more than it should. Interesting thing to watch for with these techniques. let me see if I can bring it more in line and update the track.
Quote:
__________________
Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#24
|
||||
|
||||
Check it out now, I tried to balance the GP method a little better by ear, and also tried to level match it just by ear. I think it sounds more competitive now - mostly because the side-to-side balance is better. Hopefully the levels are closer. See what you think.
As Rick says, you can certainly spend a lot of time on this. Somehow, I think just putting up 2 mics is easier!
__________________
Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#25
|
|||
|
|||
What do you make of the author's comment about one mic reducing the amount of preamp noise? Is that right? Not a big issue but just curious.....
__________________
My YouTube Page: http://www.youtube.com/user/ukejon 2014 Pono N30 DC EIR/Spruce crossover 2009 Pono koa parlor (NAMM prototype) 2018 Maton EBG808TEC 2014 Hatcher Greta 13 fret cutaway in EIR/cedar 2017 Hatcher Josie fan fret mahogany 1973 Sigma GCR7 (OM model) rosewood and spruce 2014 Rainsong OM1000N2 ....and about 5 really nice tenor ukuleles at any given moment |
#26
|
||||
|
||||
Hmm, not sure. You have the same amount of noise on one track, and you make 2 more copies, so potentially you now have 3 tracks with the noise adding up, tho you've EQ'd away some of it on the side tracks. Maybe I'm missing something. I don't usually worry about preamp noise, it's way below the level of environmental noise for me.
__________________
Music: Spotify, Bandcamp Videos: You Tube Channel Books: Hymns for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), Christmas Carols for Fingerstyle Guitar (std tuning), A DADGAD Christmas, Alternate Tunings book Online Course: Alternate Tunings for Fingerstyle Guitar |
#27
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Bear with here. First to clarify I am not talking about the merits or lack of in the method in the article, just about the term "one mic phase effect" Where as I completely understand that a guitar is a broad band frequency source and that different frequencies come off of different locations on the guitar. And I understand that different frequencies with different amplitudes are going to be at different points in their wave cycle when the arrive at the mic diaphragm and thus there can be some phase issues and thus as you say make the guitar not easy to record. And I can understand that two mics can potentially cover more of the guitars surface in closer proximity, thus could potentially cover more frequencies equally. Which may sound better to any given individual. ...... So I get all that But: what doesn't add up as far as out of phase issues. Is that using two mics would some how change those inherent phase issues ? In fact what ever slight inherent phase issue you might have one mic, wouldn't adding a second mic actually be the same issues times two plus different arrival times at two different mics ? In other words potential phase issues quadrupled ? Just musing out loud here.
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev... KevWind at Soundcloud KevWind at YouYube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...EZxkPKyieOTgRD System : Studio system Avid Carbon interface , PT Ultimate 2023.12 -Mid 2020 iMac 27" 3.8GHz 8-core i7 10th Gen ,, Ventura 13.2.1 Mobile MBP M1 Pro , PT Ultimate 2023.12 Sonoma 14.4 Last edited by KevWind; 03-16-2014 at 07:34 PM. |
#28
|
|||
|
|||
Kev, I don't know the answer to your question but is it that with one mic placed up by the neck/body joint might not receive the lower bout frequencies quick enough, whereas two mics widely spaced but at the same distance to the guitar or a two-mic coincident arrangement has a better chance of simultaneously catching more of the instruments diverse frequencies (in other words, more "in phase")?
Which leads to the novice question "Do lower frequencies travel slower through space than high frequencies, and if so should your neck mics be set back more than the lower bout or body mic?"
__________________
My YouTube Page: http://www.youtube.com/user/ukejon 2014 Pono N30 DC EIR/Spruce crossover 2009 Pono koa parlor (NAMM prototype) 2018 Maton EBG808TEC 2014 Hatcher Greta 13 fret cutaway in EIR/cedar 2017 Hatcher Josie fan fret mahogany 1973 Sigma GCR7 (OM model) rosewood and spruce 2014 Rainsong OM1000N2 ....and about 5 really nice tenor ukuleles at any given moment Last edited by ukejon; 03-16-2014 at 07:36 PM. |
#29
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
With one mike (mono recording) the exact same phase discrepancies are presented to each ear and the brain's ability to interpret it (hear it) as ambience is absent, or at least limited. Two mikes (stereo) and you have the same phase discrepancies in each mike but each ear hears a different set of discrepancies. So you could say each specific discrepancy being presented to one ear is at one half the total level of a mono discrepancy which is presented to both ears. Plus the brain is presented with a variety of signal differences between the right and left mikes with which it creates space and ambience. So in stereo some of the one mike phase problems are suppressed to a degree. Plus there is a lot of additional special and directional information being processed by the brain which helps obscure some of the single mike phase issues. Take apart one of your stereo recordings you feel came out well. Make a mono recording from the right track and another one from the left track. Listen to each mono track separately. Very probably not so nice sounding Then think about the almost magic improvement of sound of those right and left tracks in the original stereo recording.
__________________
Derek Coombs Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs "Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love To be that we hold so dear A voice from heavens above Last edited by rick-slo; 03-16-2014 at 08:27 PM. |
#30
|
||||
|
||||
Nope. The speed of sound is independent of the frequency. The wavelength changes, not the speed. V = W * F.
|