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  #16  
Old 06-11-2013, 05:01 AM
Pink Panther Pink Panther is offline
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By now, you should be realising that Fundamentally.

The Real Problem underlying all your difficulties, is caused by the fact that no one has disciplined you in the Optimal Position for Playing The Guitar.

When the Instrument is held in this Optimal Position, the Intense Pressure, over elongated periods on the Fingers, Hand, Wrist, Elbow and Shoulder are Very Greatly Relieved.

The Fingers and Hand can Encompass the Fretboard's Entire Scale with Far Greater Ease and Facility. And Fingering Versatility is Greatly Improved.

Thus you can Play Better, More Complex Music, with a Better Sound Producing Less Fingering Artefacts.

And have Far Less Severe Pressure and Pain.



This is not a matter of Open Discussion.

Individual Style, Personal Preference, or What Looks Cool.

You need to realise that like the 99% of Guitarists that don't even know how to open their Guitar Case, without inflicting damage to their Instrument.

You, with the greatest possible respect, have not yet Properly Learnt, HOW to Hold your Instrument, without doing damage to yourself. Because in reality THAT is the singular, most important reason WHY the problem is happening.

If this seems harsh, please appreciate I am an extremely Kindly Person, who is simply trying to convey to you the Absolute, Complete and Utter Truth. Beacasue the absolute reality of the situation is, Nothing Less will Solve Your Problem.



Whilst in the Long Term

Adopting the Optimal Playing Position will eradicate most of your future troubles.

You need to consider other essentially important issues and aspects relating to your Rehearsal and Musical Performance.

First realise and accept you will have to Avoid Playing for a While. To give your Physical Body a proper chance for the Nerves to Settle Down.

Once they have, you need to appreciate that it is probably the case than you have been Practising Hard until every time you Play, you render a Perfect Performance.

I want you to let ALL THAT THINKING - GO!

Stop trying to Play Perfectly Every Time.




Instead, relax within yourself. Be more comfortably serene and tranquil, more accepting of yourself, a man fully at ease with himself.

Take the Inward Mental Pressure and Stress completely out of the equation, and simply aim to give a Competent Performance every time, instead of a Perfect Performance Every Time.

If you can render a Perfect Performance, Seven Times out of every Ten Times you practice, than that is fine.

You can be happy with that and move onto Play something else.



You don't have to be Perfect, all the Time.



Only when it really counts.




Professional Guitar Players like Professional Tennis Players.

Don't Play at the Very Top of Their Game ALL the Time. But have the ability to Raise Their Game Substantially.

Exactly WHEN they really need to, be able to pull all those Sensational Pyrotechnics, that are Breathtakingly Stunning, out of the Bag.




So realise, you are probably placing greater pressure upon yourself than you need to.

That this is a Fundamental Motivational Driver, that will require a mental adjustment on your part, otherwise before long you will be back with the self same problem, once again.

Because your difficulties are not simply caused by Practical and Physical Issues, but in part by your own Self Image and your Level of Inner Sense of Self Worth. The High Expectations and Demands you place upon yourself, are Driving and Exacerbating the Problem.




Introduce Dramatic Change to your Rehearsals.

Instead of Playing for Long Periods that Incessantly Tire the Muscles.

Practise for Shorter Periods, but on a rather more regular basis, so you engage and release.

And when you Finger, use this same method, only applying pressure when you really need to, releasing the pressure when you don't.

Barre' with pressure from the perfectly straight finger, never put pressure on anything from the thumb at all behind the neck. The Thumb should only pivot becoming an anchor point. Don't squeeze the neck between Thumb and Finger. That will just create nerve problems.




Use Greater Variety in your Rehearsals Musical Material.

Ringing the Changes in Styles and Techniques, so that you are getting lots of practise, but not getting into a Rut of Repetitively using precisely the Same Muscles and Placing Pressure exactly on the Same Nerves, in just the Same Manner, Day after Day.

Switch Instruments regularly, and avoid the trap of trying to Perfect Your Playing Style, by intimately and obsessively knowing a Singular, Particular Instrument, Ad Infinitum as it were.

Try to loosen up every aspect of your Playing Approach, so that you are Confident and Competent, but Mentally Relaxed in a Zone of Performance.

And you can probably far exceed your own highest expectations, of what you are actually Musically Capable Of.

I'm in a bit of a hurry today with lots to do, but I hope these quick thoughts will prove to be helpful.




Remember.

Unless, you can first truly accept.

That most Players do not have the first clue about, how to even open their Guitar Case.

You will find it difficult to accept that most Players (even really good Professional ones), also do not know how to hold their Guitar Properly.

But it is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, as I have seen the same Physical, Finger, Wrist, Hand, Arm and Shoulder Issues come up time and time again from them.

In High Productivity Manufacturing Factories, Paint Sprayers get the same issues from their Trigger Fingers in the Spray Guns, all the way through to their Elbows and Shoulders through repetitive movements.




Be humble enough to say to yourself.

I have never bothered to learn or been trained in how to correctly open a Case without Inflicting Damage to my Guitar.

And I have never bothered to learn or been trained in how to correctly hold my Guitar in the Optimal Playing Position, to ensure the Greatest Playing Facility, without Inflicting Damage to Myself.



Only then, do you have a proper chance to completely eradicate this problem.



Every other approach will, in my opinion see the problem come back to haunt you again and again throughout your entire Playing Career.

And based upon what you have told us, cause you to have to give up Playing altogether.

For at least, a Very Substantial Period of Time.

Or the problem will simply get worse.

And involve an Operation.

Eventually.



P

Last edited by Pink Panther; 06-11-2013 at 05:17 AM.
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  #17  
Old 06-11-2013, 10:43 AM
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Norml Norml is offline
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Originally Posted by Pink Panther View Post

Barre' with pressure from the perfectly straight finger, never put pressure on anything from the thumb at all behind the neck. The Thumb should only pivot becoming an anchor point. Don't squeeze the neck between Thumb and Finger. That will just create nerve problems.


P
Really? I find I don't need a drastic amount of squeeze but some thumb pressure seems necessary. A perfectly straight finger will not work on a fretboard with a radius. Not trying to be argumentative.

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  #18  
Old 06-11-2013, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pink Panther View Post
Quote: "Internet research established ulnar nerve issue. Probably from a huge amount of practice sessions this year. I was getting ready to do a lot more. Pain mainly in the wrist."


Hi Gtrfinger! This is a condition I have encountered repeatedly over many decades amongst obsessive practisers, (it's the only way you are ever going to get perfect right?) and such thinking Players, intensely dedicated Players, and Professional Session Players. One very famous one of which had to drop out of Session Work for some while, and subsequently went into Musical Education.

You have to adjust your mental thinking, you have to moderate your methodologies, and you have to fundamentally change the manner in which you address your Instrument. If you do these things you can virtually eliminate the issue, and enjoy a long, happy, successful relationship with your Instrument Playing at a Professional Level.

If you don't do these things, this problem will continually dog you your whole Playing career and probably even Stop You Playing Altogether. I am not a Doctor. Rather I am someone who has Played at a Professional or Serious Level for Recordings for Fifty Years and don't have the problem at all, although when I was much younger, around your age I did. So I must have learnt something to great advantage.

Furthermore, it's an issue I have helped Professional Players with at the Highest Level, Repeatedly over the years, and is a Perennial Topic for Discussion And because it makes the difference between whether they can actually earn a living or not, it actually is a Life Changing Subject. I am also very interested in How Musical Instruments are Manufactured. So am fascinated by Factories and Production Methods. I also work directly with Large Corporations involved in Manufacturing at the Highest Level. High Productivity Ergonomics and Health and Safety are today at the top of the agenda for Companies, as there is a huge, entirely avoidable cost to the Business to bear, when workers suffer from Repetitive Strain Injuries.

So what I am going to discuss with you is based upon all that Professional Experience.



What you must realise, is that as a Totally Objective Fact for instance..

I take the view based upon my personal observation and experience, that 99% of Guitarists do not even know how to properly open their Guitar Case without doing damage to their Guitars.

Although you may find that difficult to accept, the evidence is there, plain to see all around you, to back that up. However, the Salient Point that relates to you and your problem. Is that you first Need To Accept, that there are issues related to Guitar Playing, that people assume to be merely a matter of common sense.

When that is clearly not the case. Areas where when beginning to learn to Play, they merely copy what they have seen many other Players do, or indeed simply do what feels convenient to them. It's just plain common sense right? We don't need to think more about these things than that.


Well just like the FACT, that you can do great damage to a Guitar simply by not opening the case in an entirely correct manner.

We can do also great damage to ourselves, and our Bodies by not Playing the Instrument in the Correct Manner. And there is an Optimal Manner to do so.

The thing is, we must First Accept that what we thought to be a matter that's simple, just common sense, requiring no thought whatever. is really Rather Complex indeed, when we consider it holistically, in its entirety, and with the full benefit of hindsight.

Unless you can Accept This, I fear the rest of what I write will not really help you much, as you will be reluctant to make the essential changes you need to eradicate the issue, as completely as possible, and thus the cure cannot possibly work and you will continue to have problems throughout your Playing Career.



Let me begin like this. Much of my experience, has come from helping Bass Players.

A recent one that comes to mind has a habit of jumping all over the Stage while he is Playing, and this places further strain on his hands. But basically, he had the same problem as you. Bass Playing is an easy way for you to understand my points.

If you ask any Bass Player, (many of which suffer with your type of problem, as a Bass String requires rather more strength that a Guitar to Finger, and the Scale Length creates far more strain), who their favourite Bass Player is. Pound to a Penny they will say James Jamerson. Or perhaps Jim Fielder, who is another good example.

Then I say, well why don't you hold your Instrument to your body like James Jamerson did, if you admire him so much?

http://prorecordingworkshop.lefora.c...1150068/JJ.jpg

http://prorecordingworkshop.lefora.c...1150505/ff.jpg


The point is Jamerson moved from Upright Bass to Electric Bass and carried over his technique from one Instrument to the other.

Like Jim Fiedler, he held his Instrument in the Optimal Playing Position. In other words, his Left Hand employed a Solid Classic Technique which was greatly enhanced by the fact that the Neck of his Instrument was addressed to his Body more vertically than usual.

This manner facilitated the Classic Playing Technique which involves the use of all four fingers, addressing the neck in a way that ensures they all can be utilised, with as little strain as possible being placed upon the muscles and nerves, through Incessant Repetitive Playing.

You should easily be able to see the sense of this for Upright Violin Bass Players. And hopefully, can now properly understand how Electric Bass Players too can have both an Improved Playing Technique, and far less Hand Strain Problems, by adopting a Similar Stance with their Instrument.

http://prorecordingworkshop.lefora.c...1150506/gg.jpg

http://prorecordingworkshop.lefora.c...150507/hhh.jpg


So now let's see what great Guitar Players do.

I have here some picture of Segovia, the man who single handed, defined what Classic Guitar Playing is, and should be in the context of an Orchestral Instrument, and thus set the Rules of Concert Playing for everyone that followed. Before Segovia, The Classical Guitar was not accepted in that Arena. People forget or usually don't realise that he invented the concept!


Segovia

http://prorecordingworkshop.lefora.c...%20%281%29.jpg


Djano Reinhardt

http://prorecordingworkshop.lefora.c...%20%282%29.jpg


Joe Pass

http://prorecordingworkshop.lefora.c...%20%282%29.jpg


Joe Pass

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLGf5tPPfe8


Martin Taylor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxLU8md9JFg





P
Very Nice Post!
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  #19  
Old 06-11-2013, 11:14 AM
JanVigne JanVigne is offline
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Injuries, injuries, injuries ... several over an eighteen month period all to my left shoulder, arm, wrist, hand and fingers. I damaged my ring and pinky finger pulling weed vines off my elderly neighbor's fence. Woke up the next morning with my fingers curled but couldn't make a fist. First doc wasn't a "hand doc" and only prescribed Nsaids and no playing time. If that didn't work, come back in a few months when the real hand doc comes on board. New doc gives steroid injections - twice but three's the limit before surgery is called for. Hand gets better but still tingles on occasion. Cut to the more serious injury which was a fall resulting in dislocated shoulder, broken elbow, torn tricep, fractured wrist and two more broken fingers. Can't play until surgery and can't play immediately after surgery. When PR begins, playing is one of the better therapies all in all.

In between, when I couldn't play a guitar, I had a brain storm of an idea. I bought a lap steel. I got better over time physically and I added an instrument to my repertoire.
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Old 06-11-2013, 12:15 PM
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This is one of the most helpful threads I have seen on this forum. Over time, repetitive motion injury caused by poor posture, age, poor ergonomics, etc can accumulate as we continue to practice and "play through" the pain... I have had shoulder and finger issues, some of it is spinal cord related injury, some ergnomic, etcetc. Ihave recently been modifying what I play, how I play, when I play, and variations of this to let my body heal after a gig, for example. I'm not a pro but I play out from time to time. For practice I stay at 30 minutes and do stretches before and after for the hands, fingers, ulnar nerve. they used to put warnings on the back of computer keyboard and mouse devices about repetitive motion injury warning. Yes I just checked. My Logitech Deluxe 250 keyboard has the warning. My mouse does not, but I'll bet the box it came in did.
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  #21  
Old 06-11-2013, 02:48 PM
Pink Panther Pink Panther is offline
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Quote: "Really?"



Hi Norml.

Really!

The issue is simply one of basic ergonomics.

Common sense tells you some pressure from the thumb seems necessary, but as I've illustrated, relying on such intuition isn't good enough to meet the dire needs of this situation, which can be devastating.

The truth is, you have grown up through your formative years completely conditioned to utilise pressure from your thumb and forefinger. Perhaps 70% of the tasks you perform in daily life require that reflex, which by now for you has become fully automatic and simply feels right, and a genuine help.

But in reality, that pressure is not required at all to perform the Task at hand. Furthermore, deploying it for an Advanced Player will inexorably and inevitably lead them to experience discomfort, strains and pain, of the nature the original poster has described. Such Pressure simply is not required, if you develop the Correct Technique and Adopt the Optimal Playing Position.



Let me see if I can explain it in a way you can grasp.

A while back, Formula 1 Racing Driver Jenson Button came to see me.

Jenson is a very Smooth Driver, he doesn't punish his Racing Cars hard to wring the best performance out of them. He gets the best performance out of them by making all his judgements sagiciously and taking all his actions in a very Smooth Manner that Conserves the Tyres Wear Rate and Ensures Good Reliability from the Engine and Gearbox etc.

When he has to take a Long Curve, or a Chicane, by approaching the Curve in the optimal manner, and leaving it in the optimal manner, and Flattening Out the Radius of the Curve, he can Drive Through It in as Straight a Line as Possible. So in reality, as many of those Awkward Sharp Curves, and as many of those Bends as possible, are made into as Straight As Line as they can be made, simply by His Approach to the Whole Issue. The Result is, He Drives Faster through them in Much Quicker Time.



How is this relevant to the Topic Issue?

Well when you Adopt The Optimal Playing Position.

So the Neck is Higher than perhaps most people would Play it in.

And you approach the Neck of your Guitar with your Thumb Placed Centrally.

Suddenly, the most Awkward Angles and Bends, that can Induce Harmful Pressure, are Greatly Reduced.

For they all are Much Straighter than they were, and where Angles do exist, now Lessened in Acuteness, they create Far Less Pressure and Strain than they did previously.

It's all about getting rid of those Sharp Angles that Slow Down your Playing, and put the Brakes down Hard upon your Muscles and Nerves, and the Carpel Tunnel from your Wrist etc. As well as the Nerves mentioned in the Thread Title.

This is why Players feel a Heat in certain Areas of their Hands. In effect, by Adopting an Incorrect and Suboptimal Posture, they are Driving the Car with the Hand Brake on all the time. They Perform Less Well than they Potentially Could, and they Burn Up and Wear Out their "Vehicles" Components.



Of course, the "Vehicle" for us, is our Physical Bodies.



When you have the Best Posture, Adopting The Optimal Playing Position, and locate your Thumb Ideally.

Suddenly All Four Fingers have Improved Facility with Greater Reach and Ease.

And the Physical Discomfort, Strain and Pain, is Tremendously Reduced.

You can Play Faster, Easier, and using more Fingers, Further.

The Thumb should simply be there as an Anchor.

And moving to "Positions" from which.

The Entire Compass of the Neck.

Can now be reached with.

Consummate Ease.



Now without using a Guitar.



If you hold your arm in a commonly experienced Playing Position.

Angling your hand acutely to address the imaginary Neck.

And squeeze your Thumb and Forefinger a little.

You will feel ALL THE PRESSURE.

Suddenly come to your Hand.

And also your Wrist.



But if you do precisely the same thing, but don't use your Thumb.

Instead, simply rely upon the Pressure from your Forefinger.

Now there is NO PRESSURE in the Hand or Wrist.

It is applying pressure from the Thumb.

That Creates Additional Tension.

You CANNOT cope with.



That's why it so important.

And why I have troubled to explain at length about it.




Quote: "A perfectly straight finger will not work on a fretboard with a radius."



When I use the phrase "A Perfectly Straight Finger" I am not referring to anything remotely involving The Radius of the Fretboard.

Some people try to finger Barre' Chords, but place their Forefinger at an Extreme Angle Lying Between The Frets.

Therefore wherever the Forefinger is furthest away from the Fret intended to be Fingered.

Far Greater Pressure is Necessary to Firmly Ensure Strong Contact.

That makes the String, Properly "Ring" Cleanly.



If the "Forefinger is Perfectly Straight" Right Up Against the Necessary Fret for the Barre Chord' and not spreading between them over to the one behind it.

Less Pressure is Needed Throughout the Length of the Forefinger.

And Less Pressure Equates to Reduced Strain and Injuries.

I trust that is Completely Straightened Out.

And Entirely Self Evident!




P
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  #22  
Old 06-12-2013, 04:27 AM
Gtrfinger Gtrfinger is offline
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Mr Panther I am indebted to the generosity of your time on this subject. Reference the old issue of left knee vs right knee, as a right knee player for 27 years, I have tried over the years to play in the classical way, on the left, but always found it uncomfortable on the spine, as it seems to require a slight left turn. But maybe I was doing it wrong.

it seems now though that if I play again, I'm going to have to relearn my posture, and transfer to left knee, or buy an A Frame.
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  #23  
Old 06-12-2013, 07:09 AM
Pink Panther Pink Panther is offline
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Hi Gtrfinger!

Have you tried placing the Base of your Guitar?

On your right leg, close to where it meets your body, and holding the Instrument, in an almost to Vertical Position.

This is similar in many respects to the Position a Classical Violin Bass Player would Adopt, and a Perfect Position for the Ideal Execution of Excellent Technique.




Once your Nerves Settle.

And that will of course involve time.

This Position will Greatly Alleviate Reoccurrence.

It can be used for Dreadnoughts and Large Bodied Instruments.

And best of all, the Eyes and Left Hand are close for Breathtaking Pyrotechnics.



There is a Position that the earliest Flamenco Exponents Adopted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj_WZZqyMoI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZxkrNGfbAA



It has a Distinguished, yet very little known Pedigree.

And one I use myself a great deal of the time.

With Certain Instruments in Particular.

But I use it More Vertically.



P

Last edited by Pink Panther; 06-12-2013 at 07:24 AM.
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  #24  
Old 06-12-2013, 07:20 AM
HJayK1 HJayK1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Howard Klepper View Post
Way to politicize the thread.
My reaction also.
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  #25  
Old 06-12-2013, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Gtrfinger View Post
That's brilliant. Thanks everyone. I'm going to have to resist playing guitar for even 5 minutes I think, until I'm pain free for at least a week.

Just concerned that my level will have dropped significantly by then. Sounds like it could take months.

I'll make an appointment with chiropractor and Alexander Technique practitioner, though they are not normally publicly funded in UK.
Lack of pain is not an indicator that all is well; your medic is correct-stop playing altogether or risk exacerbating the injury. A local guitar player had a year off because he ignored medical advice and thought he could 'play through' the pain of CTS.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:56 AM
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Way to politicize the thread.
Agreed - very sad -
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:17 AM
lydiabixby lydiabixby is offline
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I hope that I might enter this different injury onto this thread without offense as it is directly guitar related and the thread has the attention of some very knowledgable people as I have come to expect on AGF.

My injury has been diagnosed as a "labral tear" of the left hip. There is a cartilage that rings the outer circumference of the hip socket which has a tear as found by MRI. Apparently induced by arthritis of the left hip. There are two things that I do each day which makes the injury quite apparent, one is while seated playing guitar in my designated straight backed chair and if I lean slightly forward to look closer at the music on the stand in front of me, it hurts. A deep groin pain that can radiate down the inside of the leg. The other everyday that brings forth the same pain is putting a sock on my left foot. I know, you'll say don't lean forward while you are seated and don't wear socks. I'm trying. What I wish to ask anyone is where do I go from here? The Orthopedic surgeon says "You don't need a hip transplant." He said if the anti-inflammatory medicine doesn't do the job, (it didn't) "We could try a cortison shot if you want to." There must be a better alternative to those suggestions. I limp most of the time and have pain off and on all day and night.

I apologize if you all think my question inappropriate but turning to this forum really seems a logical thing for me to do as I have come to respect the knowledge and integrity expressed here.

Pete from New Hampshire, US
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  #28  
Old 06-12-2013, 10:51 AM
JLed79 JLed79 is offline
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Originally Posted by lydiabixby View Post
I hope that I might enter this different injury onto this thread without offense as it is directly guitar related and the thread has the attention of some very knowledgable people as I have come to expect on AGF.

My injury has been diagnosed as a "labral tear" of the left hip. There is a cartilage that rings the outer circumference of the hip socket which has a tear as found by MRI. Apparently induced by arthritis of the left hip. There are two things that I do each day which makes the injury quite apparent, one is while seated playing guitar in my designated straight backed chair and if I lean slightly forward to look closer at the music on the stand in front of me, it hurts. A deep groin pain that can radiate down the inside of the leg. The other everyday that brings forth the same pain is putting a sock on my left foot. I know, you'll say don't lean forward while you are seated and don't wear socks. I'm trying. What I wish to ask anyone is where do I go from here? The Orthopedic surgeon says "You don't need a hip transplant." He said if the anti-inflammatory medicine doesn't do the job, (it didn't) "We could try a cortison shot if you want to." There must be a better alternative to those suggestions. I limp most of the time and have pain off and on all day and night.

I apologize if you all think my question inappropriate but turning to this forum really seems a logical thing for me to do as I have come to respect the knowledge and integrity expressed here.

Pete from New Hampshire, US
Labral tears are no fun. Sorry to hear about that. I do have to go with your Ortho on this one though. A labral tear is not a good indicator for replacement. In shoulders we can repair the labrum doing a Bankhart repair, but that just doesn't translate well to the hip joint. I would agree with him about the cortisone injection. It may give you the relief you need and it's not a big deal to do. I'd say give it a shot (no pun intended), it very well may do the trick. Effectiveness can vary from none at all to being completely asymptomatic for 6+ months. My advice would be to do it and see if it works. Also, if after three subsequent injections there is still no relief, you should look more seriously into a replacement.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:08 PM
lydiabixby lydiabixby is offline
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Originally Posted by JLed79 View Post
Labral tears are no fun. Sorry to hear about that. I do have to go with your Ortho on this one though. A labral tear is not a good indicator for replacement. In shoulders we can repair the labrum doing a Bankhart repair, but that just doesn't translate well to the hip joint. I would agree with him about the cortisone injection. It may give you the relief you need and it's not a big deal to do. I'd say give it a shot (no pun intended), it very well may do the trick. Effectiveness can vary from none at all to being completely asymptomatic for 6+ months. My advice would be to do it and see if it works. Also, if after three subsequent injections there is still no relief, you should look more seriously into a replacement.
JLed79
Thank you so much, just exactly the guidance I was looking for. I'll let you know how the cortisone shot turns out.

Pete
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:09 PM
JLed79 JLed79 is offline
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JLed79
Thank you so much, just exactly the guidance I was looking for. I'll let you know how the cortisone shot turns out.

Pete
Sounds good and good luck! Just remember, free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.
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