Thoughts on my "bargain"?

[agnosia71]

I found this apparently inexpensive classical guitar in London, solid rosewood b & s, solid spruce top, £300, a Chinese guitar with the customary fake Spanish name. I liked it in the shop and with its initial Savarez strings, possibly high tension. It had 4mm action on the bass side at the 12th fret and being used to steel string guitars I lowered the action .5mm, optimised the nut slots and then put Dunlop standard tension strings on.

It really sounds dull and boxy now. It could be the strings or the original action may have been ideal. I suppose it does feel 'too' easy to play now so 4mm might really have been fine. I've heard the term 'compression' being used in relation to acoustic stringed instruments, and I wondered if this fits what I'm hearing - the notes sound more refined when played softer, but any assertiveness makes for this dull, cardboard sound, the wound strings' notes seeming 'all fundamental' where when played softer there is more of the harmonically involved, 'round' nylon string sound. I'm wondering if higher or lower action will suit this this guitar better or if the change in tension with the new strings will marry well with the lowered saddle.

I've ordered a new Savarez set, with a wound 3rd, and a blank bone saddle. (It came with a NuBone one, a decent enough material, and I'll try to obtain a blank but it seems NuBone is mostly available only in bulk for luthiers.) I'm going to make the saddle the same height the NuBone one was originally and for the life of the new set of strings I'll see how I fare, but I'm wondering also if lowering the action further, maybe 3mm on the bass side and 2.75 on the treble, and adopting a light touch, would be playing to the guitar's apparent strengths. Ultimately I'll try out different approaches but it seems some rules of thumb about guitar construction might mean someone here might be able to say a few things about what is likely to suit this guitar best based on what I've described.

It's not a great guitar but they've put good materials into it and it has sounded and felt better than it currently does. Maybe I won't in the end keep it long but I want to give it some time.

Thanks for any thoughts.

[Ned Milburn]

Savarez are good quality, "punchy" sounding (powerful & clear) strings.

I don't remember having used Dunlops, but I don't remember any classical player I know who used them. So I wouldn't be surprised if they are a bland sounding string. If they were great, more people would use them.

Regarding action: "Concert" action is up to 3.5mm high E and 4.5mm low e. Usually at least 3mm and 4mm for good sound and clear projection.

A well built bone saddle will usually best any plastic or man-made product. Tusq, nu-bone, etc, are all proprietary brand names for plastic. Some of them might have "natural" materials mixed into the resin, but the resin is plastic. So, for all intensive purposes, if it is not bone (or ivory), it is plastic.

[harpon]

Don't know why you'd lose sound quality. Theres a couple of things I do often to add some volume and resonance.

First of all if you can get your hand inside the sound hole- sand smooth anything that is left rough. Rough surfaces absorb sound and I can always here a difference if I simply sand smooth all interior rough surfaces.

It helps sometimes to enlarge the sound hole itself- doesn't have to be that much- and it may facilitate getting your hand inside.

Another thing is to especially sand or file down any braces that are placed directly opposite each other top and back sides. This closes the sound cavity to long sound waves. Many many internal braces are shorter on the sides where they make contact with the body and then flare upwards in the middle- which doesn't really add any support- just physical mass to kill sustain vibrations and to close the sound cavity down. You can really sand a lot of the top of the main braces down with only risk if you happen to sit on the guitar. It's internal strength is not diminished otherwise. I first did this on a 3/4 size and was amazed at the increased volume and resonance

Any internal sanding takes off not only dense mass that absorbs the sound vibrations but also slightly increases the cubic inch space of the sound cavity, giving greater resonance.
I usually make sure the internal top back and sides are smooth at least.

I warn you though- once you see the difference for yourself, you;
'll be agonizing about whether and when to tear into any new guitar you get!

[agnosia71]

Thanks. There's no volume problem with this guitar, it's about it compressing a bit too easily I think, unless it's just or mostly the apparently bad Dunlop strings.

I'm curious about what governs this compression matter and in short what sorts of setup might best get round it.

[oldtimeblues]

Originally Posted by agnosia71

I found this apparently inexpensive classical guitar in London, solid rosewood b & s, solid spruce top, £300, a Chinese guitar with the customary fake Spanish name. I liked it in the shop and with its initial Savarez strings, possibly high tension. It had 4mm action on the bass side at the 12th fret and being used to steel string guitars I lowered the action .5mm, optimised the nut slots and then put Dunlop standard tension strings on.

It really sounds dull and boxy now. It could be the strings or the original action may have been ideal. I suppose it does feel 'too' easy to play now so 4mm might really have been fine. I've heard the term 'compression' being used in relation to acoustic stringed instruments, and I wondered if this fits what I'm hearing - the notes sound more refined when played softer, but any assertiveness makes for this dull, cardboard sound, the wound strings' notes seeming 'all fundamental' where when played softer there is more of the harmonically involved, 'round' nylon string sound. I'm wondering if higher or lower action will suit this this guitar better or if the change in tension with the new strings will marry well with the lowered saddle.

I've ordered a new Savarez set, with a wound 3rd, and a blank bone saddle. (It came with a NuBone one, a decent enough material, and I'll try to obtain a blank but it seems NuBone is mostly available only in bulk for luthiers.) I'm going to make the saddle the same height the NuBone one was originally and for the life of the new set of strings I'll see how I fare, but I'm wondering also if lowering the action further, maybe 3mm on the bass side and 2.75 on the treble, and adopting a light touch, would be playing to the guitar's apparent strengths. Ultimately I'll try out different approaches but it seems some rules of thumb about guitar construction might mean someone here might be able to say a few things about what is likely to suit this guitar best based on what I've described.

It's not a great guitar but they've put good materials into it and it has sounded and felt better than it currently does. Maybe I won't in the end keep it long but I want to give it some time.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Yeah you got a great deal. If you've been playing steel any nylon opens up a whole new world. Better you just spent 400 on your first exploration. I would not try to solve things by buying a new guitar for a long long time.

It's all about the wood man. You never know when you may find an old cheap guitar with realy good wood. And spending more money on a new guitar doesn't mean you are getting better wood.

Sounds like you have a good starter to teach you about wood and strings (and also to develope your style and see where you fit in in the nylon world.)

Cordoba now uses Savarerez Corum 500cj. That's probably a good place to start for a Chinese guitar.

But before you plunk down anymore money on a guitar you need to go to the store and start playing them and stop trying to figure out what is best by what they charge on the internet. More money doesn't mean better guitar.

You have spruce, compare now to cedar. Compare back rosewood to mahogany, one is more expensive but not neccessarily better.

To this day they are still trying to figure out what it is about a stradivaius. At one time they thought it was the varnish, but now they think it was just a load of good wood.

Weather, geographic area, time harvested all contribute. That is why when you buy a new chinese guitar you can pretty much figure all those built out of the same load of wood will probably sound about the same.

Yeah, you got a good deal man. Now you have a good string tester, and you didn't get fooled by the ads on the internet. Now, don't spend another penny on a guitar you have not played. There's no hurry is there?

[Mr. Scott]

The first thing I would do would be to change the strings. Go back to high tension, and Savarez are excellent. D'Addario do some too (called Pro Arte) but my personal preference is for Savarez.
You've lowered the action a bit, but half a millimetre is not much so that shouldn't make a big difference. About 4 - 4.5mm is the usual action for a classical, measured at the 12th fret, unfretted.
I would not recomment filing or sanding inside your guitar, be it a cheap one or (more importantly) a dear one. Once you've removed any wood that's it, you can't put it back, and especially with less expensive guitars, experiments such as this are unlikely to produce any sonic benefits.
So try that and enjoy your guitar. And remember that the more noticeable improvements in tone and volume are usually attended by a logarithmic decrease in your bank balance.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by oldtimeblues

It's all about the wood man.

You have spruce, compare now to cedar. Compare back rosewood to mahogany, one is more expensive but not neccessarily better.

To this day they are still trying to figure out what it is about a stradivaius. At one time they thought it was the varnish, but now they think it was just a load of good wood.

There's been many blind studies done with top violinists to get them to try to identify a Stradavarius or Guarneri instruments versus modern newly built instruments. The results showed that a well built violin is a well built violin no matter who built it when.

Mediocre wood in the hands of a great builder will still make a superlative instrument.

Superlative wood in the hands of a mediocre builder will still produce a mediocre instrument.

There is much more to a soundboard than just the wood. It is the ability to balance its stiffness and flexibility to produce a full volume with a great harmonic balance across the range of the instrument.

So, in the guitar world, comparing a cedar topped instrument by Ramirez to a spruce topped instrument by Rubio, for example, won't tell as much about the differences of the wood as it will tell about the differences between a Rubio guitar sound and a Ramirez guitar sound. In the guitar soundboard, the bracing is critical. In a violin, the carving thicknesses and contours, as well as the sound post, are critical. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges...

[oldtimeblues]

Originally Posted by Mr. Scott

The first thing I would do would be to change the strings. Go back to high tension, and Savarez are excellent. D'Addario do some too (called Pro Arte) but my personal preference is for Savarez.
You've lowered the action a bit, but half a millimetre is not much so that shouldn't make a big difference. About 4 - 4.5mm is the usual action for a classical, measured at the 12th fret, unfretted.
I would not recomment filing or sanding inside your guitar, be it a cheap one or (more importantly) a dear one. Once you've removed any wood that's it, you can't put it back, and especially with less expensive guitars, experiments such as this are unlikely to produce any sonic benefits.
So try that and enjoy your guitar. And remember that the more noticeable improvements in tone and volume are usually attended by a logarithmic decrease in your bank balance.

well said, If you don't believe it, just give your guitar to a player who is ten times better than you and it will sound ten times better. Who knows how much you would have to spend to sound that good?

[oldtimeblues]

Originally Posted by Ned Milburn

There's been many blind studies done with top violinists to get them to try to identify a Stradavarius or Guarneri instruments versus modern newly built instruments. The results showed that a well built violin is a well built violin no matter who built it when.

Mediocre wood in the hands of a great builder will still make a superlative instrument.

Superlative wood in the hands of a mediocre builder will still produce a mediocre instrument.

There is much more to a soundboard than just the wood. It is the ability to balance its stiffness and flexibility to produce a full volume with a great harmonic balance across the range of the instrument.

So, in the guitar world, comparing a cedar topped instrument by Ramirez to a spruce topped instrument by Rubio, for example, won't tell as much about the differences of the wood as it will tell about the differences between a Rubio guitar sound and a Ramirez guitar sound. In the guitar soundboard, the bracing is critical. In a violin, the carving thicknesses and contours, as well as the sound post, are critical. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges...

glad you mentioned blind studies. That's really the deal isn't it? I doubt in a blindfold test I could guess anything about the guitar or strings or when or where it was made.

Thanks for clearing up, I just refer to "wood" as the sound of the pure guitar. As a luthier you know it is much more than wood.

But still for some reason, two identical guitars with the same specs sound different to the player who may buy it.

[agnosia71]

Well this is encouraging. I was beginning to think I'd landed a pig. I will edit this post with a resolution hopefully when the strings come, I was expecting them today.

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by oldtimeblues

But still for some reason, two identical guitars with the same specs sound different to the player who may buy it.

Guitars are made of wood, and there are no two identical guitars.
Builders much more experienced than I have been less than successful in attempts at building identical guitars.

The species and construction may be identical, but there's enough variation within any wood species to prevent the guitars from being identical. That's one reason they all sound different.

[agnosia71]

In the end I got a Tusq blank and made a new saddle roughly the original height. It's sounding good again, and really not painful at all. It's like The Cat in the Hat...

It suits standard tensions strings best too, the hard tension was really dead-sounding and unpleasant. The right-handed version of this guitar can be had for £250, not bad for solid woods. If not played with care it can be boxy, but I've heard expensive nylon string guitars sound that way too, so I think I did well buying this.