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Old 01-16-2017, 02:38 AM
Northward Northward is offline
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Default Tape reel recording vs plugins

I live in Tandberg land, Norway, and I was wondering if I should get myself a Tape Reel to reel recorder, as they pop up here used from time to time.

The allure: The SOUND! That beutiful tape compressed sound and the very focused old school workflow.

Cons: I fear that it will break down and end up as a expensive decoration on a shelf. The need to rerecord the tracks into the PC for mixing....a hassle of course.

So does the e.g. UA tape plugins provide that same analogue compressed saturation, or is it just hype?

Listen to tape machines on YouTube, even after the brutal compression YouTube gives their files, that nice warm sound can still be heard.
It's quite amazing!

Easy to romantizise, of course there is a lot of drawbacks vs digital, but that sound...

I've even considered an ol cassette multitracker.

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Old 01-16-2017, 05:42 AM
LSemmens LSemmens is offline
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These days forget the old reel-reel for mastering. You can do way better with a digital medium. Tape Hiss being the main complaint. I started out with a Sony TC630 way back in the 70s, had an AKAI X150d for a short time, certainly not in the same league as a good Tandberg but, you get the idea. I still have a R-R sitting on the shelf but have never used it. I did intend to transfer all my tapes over to disk, but have never got around to it. I have some records, too.
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Old 01-16-2017, 06:31 AM
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Hi!

I own this and keep it in the studio:



As you might know, that's a lovely Tandberg 9100X from the mid-1970s. That model was the first serious tape deck I ever worked on back in the '70s and I found this example a few years ago at a studio "fire sale" for $25. It is a real trooper and just keeps working. I don't use it for mastering but instead to have access to the occasional 1/4 track 1/4" tape that comes along, such as THIS one. Now, I started in R-t-R world, studied analog recording systems, and know how to keep this beast working. There is a Tandberg repair specialist in the world, SoundSmith.

But back to your question, yes, you can get some compression and warmth on a mix by running it through an analog deck but you are reducing it to a 65db signal to noise ratio (or 72db with Tangberg's excellent "Cross Field" recording system from that period and that model. You can do better with a professional half-track 1/4" or a half-track 1/2" deck, but they are more expensive. But what the heck? If you can find an old Tandberg deck at the price I paid buy it and try it! But where I miss the compression of analog is when I'm recording drums. Our technique used to be to push the drums up to the edge of saturation in order to get the gentle tape compression that was available.

So, it is up to you!


(We've still got Sony analog machines at the studio.)

Bob
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Old 01-16-2017, 09:36 AM
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If it were me and I really wanted that particular sound that analog tape brings to the table And if you can find one at a good price in good shape. I would definitely consider it plus if you already have a DAW system you can experiment with it hybrid as per Bobs post
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Old 01-16-2017, 01:46 PM
Northward Northward is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
Hi!

I own this and keep it in the studio:



As you might know, that's a lovely Tandberg 9100X from the mid-1970s. That model was the first serious tape deck I ever worked on back in the '70s and I found this example a few years ago at a studio "fire sale" for $25. It is a real trooper and just keeps working. I don't use it for mastering but instead to have access to the occasional 1/4 track 1/4" tape that comes along, such as THIS one. Now, I started in R-t-R world, studied analog recording systems, and know how to keep this beast working. There is a Tandberg repair specialist in the world, SoundSmith.

But back to your question, yes, you can get some compression and warmth on a mix by running it through an analog deck but you are reducing it to a 65db signal to noise ratio (or 72db with Tangberg's excellent "Cross Field" recording system from that period and that model. You can do better with a professional half-track 1/4" or a half-track 1/2" deck, but they are more expensive. But what the heck? If you can find an old Tandberg deck at the price I paid buy it and try it! But where I miss the compression of analog is when I'm recording drums. Our technique used to be to push the drums up to the edge of saturation in order to get the gentle tape compression that was available.

So, it is up to you!


(We've still got Sony analog machines at the studio.)

Bob
Good looking Tandberg! Nice to see that tape is still alive and kicking. I can get one like it right now, but there is a problem with it and I'm sceptical. I think I may get a machine if a good one pops up at a fair price.

For keeping it simple, it seems like a very backwards move, with the zillion options a DAW offer. But I just can't shake the idea that any track of just about anything, sound more pleasant on tape. I mean just take a listen to this Sony consumer machine and tell me that isn't something quite sweet old HI Fi going on.. I have a feeling that we're beeing duped by the software companies to believe new recording methods sounds better when acually new sounds sterile.

Have you tried the emulation by UA and compared them, Bob?
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Last edited by Northward; 01-16-2017 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 01-16-2017, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
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Have you tried the emulation by UA and compared them, Bob?
I'm afraid I haven't because I've got the real thing sitting here when I need it.

Bob
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Old 01-16-2017, 02:25 PM
Northward Northward is offline
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Ok.

I think I'll do a little more research on the UA stuff. Read users review in forums like this. Curious about what the upcoming NAMM avails in the recording area. A modern take on Reel recording would be very interessting.

There also is a certain aspect of tape recording that is interessting from a performing standpoint. If actual tape is running I think there is an added focus to perform. Digital recording running on a timeline is 'just ones and zeros' and you could do them forever, and never make up your mind. Thus: in ease of use there is also a ghost called lack of focus (unless you are in a studio - paying pr. the hour of course).
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Old 01-16-2017, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northward View Post
So does the e.g. UA tape plugins provide that same analogue compressed saturation, or is it just hype?
I demoed the UA Studer and Ampex plugins last month and made a couple of sound files for comparative purposes. Ignore the bad mix as I just did it quick to hear what the plugs did. Everything is identical except for the tape plugs (Studer on the tracks, Ampex on the master).



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Old 01-16-2017, 06:22 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Cost & Availability of Tape? Noise Reduction? Editing w/ a Blade? No Thanks!

Aloha Northward,

In the 70's, I owned & recorded directly to a Studer A-827 eight track 1" analog recorder. It's still the most natural, most complete recorded acoustic sound I have ever heard, even w/ dbx noise reduction, Ha! Loved the warmth of that sine wave! But modern DAW's & plug-in's are simply fantastic for home recordists & much more practical.

Additionally, a 15-minute long pancake of 1" tape back then was $46 - in 1979! Sorry, but 1/4" & even 1/2" ferrous oxide tape wasn't all that great (remember the compressed sounding Portastudio?). And it deteriorated at an alarming rate.

So, when Sony came out with the portable F-1 16-bit digital recorder/ Beta tape transport combo in 1979, I went digital ASAP, even though it was around $2900 for the units (but still much cheaper than a Studer analog recorder). The cost of 6-8 hours on Beta tape cartridge back then was only $2.50. And NO overtone-killing noise reduction was necessary either & no tape hiss. So it was a no brainer for me, despite the huge expense for new digital audio technology back then. 16-bit! Yeessshh!

The sound & idea of reel-to-reel recordings may have a strong attraction for those who've heard the differences. But unless you're in a pro studio, the cost & availability of quality tape plus maintenance may kill the romance "reel" fast. Not to mention going back to razor editing & splicing. I do love that sound you're talking about, though.

When I have my studio up & running, I sometimes invite friends over to listen to Michael Hedges' Aerial Boundaries. Original disc's from 1984, 1999 & 2010 that I only play to demo the differences. They can clearly hear the improvements (especially sound-staging & depth) in digital conversion technology while listening to those songs sitting in my studio's Optimum Listening Position (OLP), through my decent signal chain & Adam A7X monitors.

However, when I bring out my LP-33 record of that same Windham Hill Recording that was recorded direct to a Studer A-80 1" two-track recorder before conversion, it's like an old friend has come back to visit us after a long trip, with a warm embrace. I've had musical friends literally tear-up while listening to some of my analog Studer tapes. So you're right, the sound was more complete then. But not enough for home recordists like me to re-invest in tape technology. It's not worth it.

Digital audio for home recordists has now been around almost 40 years. The latest DAW's, digital signal chains & recorders have evolved well enough so that a home recordist like myself would never want to go back to tape & noise reduction. Who's going to maintain it? Who has the parts? See?

Good Luck!

alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 01-17-2017 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 01-18-2017, 01:10 AM
Northward Northward is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alohachris View Post
Aloha Northward,

In the 70's, I owned & recorded directly to a Studer A-827 eight track 1" analog recorder. It's still the most natural, most complete recorded acoustic sound I have ever heard, even w/ dbx noise reduction, Ha! Loved the warmth of that sine wave! But modern DAW's & plug-in's are simply fantastic for home recordists & much more practical.

Additionally, a 15-minute long pancake of 1" tape back then was $46 - in 1979! Sorry, but 1/4" & even 1/2" ferrous oxide tape wasn't all that great (remember the compressed sounding Portastudio?). And it deteriorated at an alarming rate.

So, when Sony came out with the portable F-1 16-bit digital recorder/ Beta tape transport combo in 1979, I went digital ASAP, even though it was around $2900 for the units (but still much cheaper than a Studer analog recorder). The cost of 6-8 hours on Beta tape cartridge back then was only $2.50. And NO overtone-killing noise reduction was necessary either & no tape hiss. So it was a no brainer for me, despite the huge expense for new digital audio technology back then. 16-bit! Yeessshh!

The sound & idea of reel-to-reel recordings may have a strong attraction for those who've heard the differences. But unless you're in a pro studio, the cost & availability of quality tape plus maintenance may kill the romance "reel" fast. Not to mention going back to razor editing & splicing. I do love that sound you're talking about, though.

When I have my studio up & running, I sometimes invite friends over to listen to Michael Hedges' Aerial Boundaries. Original disc's from 1984, 1999 & 2010 that I only play to demo the differences. They can clearly hear the improvements (especially sound-staging & depth) in digital conversion technology while listening to those songs sitting in my studio's Optimum Listening Position (OLP), through my decent signal chain & Adam A7X monitors.

However, when I bring out my LP-33 record of that same Windham Hill Recording that was recorded direct to a Studer A-80 1" two-track recorder before conversion, it's like an old friend has come back to visit us after a long trip, with a warm embrace. I've had musical friends literally tear-up while listening to some of my analog Studer tapes. So you're right, the sound was more complete then. But not enough for home recordists like me to re-invest in tape technology. It's not worth it.

Digital audio for home recordists has now been around almost 40 years. The latest DAW's, digital signal chains & recorders have evolved well enough so that a home recordist like myself would never want to go back to tape & noise reduction. Who's going to maintain it? Who has the parts? See?

Good Luck!

alohachris
Thank you man! I feel quite enlightened after reading your post.
It's really something that yesteryears analogue sound still capture us this way. Imagine, -there are a few generations that listen to all their music on speaker phones and bass-hyped PC-speakers. Surely we are missing out in the age of MP3. When I fire up my old Tandberg Huldra tube radio and listen to music, -then I remember.

But, you're quite right, it's too easy to romantizise these machines.
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Last edited by Northward; 01-18-2017 at 01:43 AM.
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Old 01-18-2017, 01:20 AM
Northward Northward is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim1960 View Post
I demoed the UA Studer and Ampex plugins last month and made a couple of sound files for comparative purposes. Ignore the bad mix as I just did it quick to hear what the plugs did. Everything is identical except for the tape plugs (Studer on the tracks, Ampex on the master).



Thank you so much for this!

Nice, mellow track. Reminded me of Guy Clark. (Take a listen to: Magdalene, (that chorus female singer - just too beautiful)
It's a bit hard to hear the plugins working since you didn't 'push' it. But I hear some midrange 'glue'. It's def a smoother listen with tape.

What's the old Reel-Hound alohachris' verdict...?
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Last edited by Northward; 01-18-2017 at 01:37 AM.
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Old 01-18-2017, 06:18 AM
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Bob Womack Bob Womack is offline
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By the way, I got an email from Abbey Road Studios saying that the Abbey Road/Waves J37 tape saturation plugin is on sale today for $69.


Click on the pic to got to product page.

I've never used it but it is Abbey Road's named plug.

Bob
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Old 01-18-2017, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
By the way, I got an email from Abbey Road Studios saying that the Abbey Road/Waves J37 tape saturation plugin is on sale today for $69.


Click on the pic to got to product page.

I've never used it but it is Abbey Road's named plug.

Bob
Thanks Bob, that is pretty good price if it is anywhere close to the "reel" deal
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Old 01-18-2017, 10:40 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northward View Post
Thank you so much for this!

Nice, mellow track. Reminded me of Guy Clark. (Take a listen to: Magdalene, (that chorus female singer - just too beautiful)
It's a bit hard to hear the plugins working since you didn't 'push' it. But I hear some midrange 'glue'. It's def a smoother listen with tape.
I didn't want to offer my opinion until you had a chance to form your own. I thought the tape plugs improved the track. In addition to the smoothing out that we both heard, I also think it made the top much less harsh and brittle sounding. The only bad thing was a little mid range honk that could easily be fixed with eq. In the end, I thought the improvement was significant and I bought both plugins.

Thanks for the compliment on the song.
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Old 01-18-2017, 10:42 AM
jim1960 jim1960 is offline
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Thanks Bob, that is pretty good price if it is anywhere close to the "reel" deal
I demoed the J37 at the same time I demoed the UAD plugs (and the Slate VTM plug too). Of the three, the J37 impressed me the least.
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