Well, Well, Well, guess who makes fake LP's

[DanPanther]

The new Guitar World on line mag, posted an article about MAX, the Elite insider that MAKES FAKE Les Pauls for the Big Boy and Girls.
These are considered as good or better than REAL les Pauls. The PROBLEM is, He makes rare Vintage 1959 Knock offs. Worth 10's of thousands of Dollars.
How is this any different than a Chinese Copy.
Slash for one owns one, and condones it. So How can all the purists reconcile the fact that in 20 years, someone may pay 6 figures for a FAKE Les Paul.
PLEASE don't say this is different. Sooner or later these fakes are going to make it to the streets.
Virtually undetectable from the real ones. They even brag about how collectors pay premium prices for these fakes.


Dan

Check it out here. Check the description at 3:50.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3vlUBvjdxQ

[rct]

Big news! In 1990 or so.

rct

[dmoss74]

well, as a matter of art/luthiery, there is no comparison to one of the top shelf replicas (fakes, as you refer to them) and the chinese drek.

on a philosophical level, one could argue there is no difference between them, as they are both in violation of trademarks.

having said that, i don't know if the better replica makers id their guitars in some way, so a not to blatantly deceive someone into thinking that they are original bursts. these instruments are commissioned, not something you can get in a brick and mortar somewhere.

if the initial buyer tries to pawn them off as originals down the road, it would be pretty hard to pull that off on potential buyers. MOST of the remaining bursts have been accounted for. and i would assume that any potential buyer would go to great lengths to verify the provenance of the instrument.

but again, on a manufacturing level, there is no comparison between these replicas (which for all intent and purposes are works of art) and the utterly ridiculous chinese fakes.

[DanPanther]

I am not concerned about the hype of this, or that, in comparison. BOTTOM LINE they stole the logo, and charge 10's of thousands of dollars, and you can speculate about ID's all day long, BUT SOONER OR LATER SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET ROYALLY SCREWED.
It seems, it is not so much the fact that the trademark is compromised, as it is WHO DOES THE COMPROMISING..
NO ONE can seriously say this is OK. If you can then I call Hypocrisy.

So now it's "Ridiculous CHINESE Fakes", OR NON FAKE "works of art". BS. It's theft. No other way to look at it, and the people at the TOP condone it.
I have to go play my CHINESE RIDICULOUS FAKE LES PAUL, which everyone that has seen it, can not tell the difference, this after about $500.00 of upgrades.

Dan

[Texsunburst59]

I was born in '59 and I'd love nothing more that to own an original Strat, Tele, or LP from that year.

I'm pretty sure I'll never own one, and I'd NEVER pay thousands of $$$$ for a knock of no matter how great it is.

I truly believe that if there's a really serious buyer contemplating buying what is supposed to be and original '59, they'll do their detective work to verify it's authenticity before they shell $250K+.

I'm not saying it's an impossibility, but not likely someone would be taken.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by DanPanther

The new Guitar World on line mag, posted an article about MAX, the Elite insider that MAKES FAKE Les Pauls for the Big Boy and Girls.
These are considered as good or better than REAL les Pauls. The PROBLEM is, He makes rare Vintage 1959 Knock offs. Worth 10's of thousands of Dollars.
How is this any different than a Chinese Copy.
Slash for one owns one, and condones it. So How can all the purists reconcile the fact that in 20 years, someone may pay 6 figures for a FAKE Les Paul.
PLEASE don't say this is different. Sooner or later these fakes are going to make it to the streets.
Virtually undetectable from the real ones. They even brag about how collectors pay premium prices for these fakes.


Dan

Check it out here. Check the description at 3:50.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3vlUBvjdxQ

Slash is happy with his, he recirded Appetite For Destruction with one...

[DanPanther]

Of course HIGH end purchasers are going to "BUYER BEWARE".
THAT IS NOT WHOM I REFER TO. I'm referring to the guy with a lot of extra cash, and the opportunity for the deal of a lifetime.
There is simply NO good argument to condone this. They are Fakes, with Stolen trademarks, and sold for THOUSANDS of dollars. PERIOD.
If it's WONG for Chinese, it's Wonk for everyone.
Dan

[Mr. Jelly]

I know of a Gibson dealer that bought several Chinese Les Pauls when they were first available. He bought them for future collectables and put them in his warehouse along with his vintage guitars and amps he rents out to rock bands when they come to town.

[riverrummed]

I find the kind of corporate mentality that buys a company that has built a good reputation over time, and on the backs of a reputable workforce, and then proceeds to cheapen the product line, usually while simultaneously raising prices and, sometimes screwing the workforce (pension plans, health benefits, loss of jobs once customers get hip, etc), to be the more egregious practice. Don't get me wrong, I find both practices morally reprehensible, but knock-offs have been around a long time. Caveat emptor is from Roman times I believe. But large, industrial corporate piracy and the much larger and broader rape and pillage of larger numbers of people and natural resources is a more recent development since the rise of capitalism, that dwarfs things like knock-off Les Paul guitars. I think Norlin did a bigger number on Gibson's reputation and workforce than the Chinese doing these guitars ever will.

[baimo]

Originally Posted by DanPanther

I am not concerned about the hype of this, or that, in comparison. BOTTOM LINE they stole the logo, and charge 10's of thousands of dollars, and you can speculate about ID's all day long, BUT SOONER OR LATER SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET ROYALLY SCREWED.
It seems, it is not so much the fact that the trademark is compromised, as it is WHO DOES THE COMPROMISING..
NO ONE can seriously say this is OK. If you can then I call Hypocrisy.

So now it's "Ridiculous CHINESE Fakes", OR NON FAKE "works of art". BS. It's theft. No other way to look at it, and the people at the TOP condone it.
I have to go play my CHINESE RIDICULOUS FAKE LES PAUL, which everyone that has seen it, can not tell the difference, this after about $500.00 of upgrades.

Dan

I really agree with you. Just not as passionately as you. LOL If it says Gibson it should be made by Gibson. I have expensive strat and tele knock-offs but they both have the builder's name instead of Fender, Michael Tuttle who make the sweetest stainless steel frets and the nicest feeling neck that I have ever touched. I would not buy them if they said Fender.

[redir]

LOL! What a crock of Shiz... Yeah man the tone, it's all in the animal glue.

I agree with you Panther, it's a rip off... It's not like recreating a Renaissance lute for example.

[GySgtFTL]

"Methinks you protest too much." Seriously though, you seem really upset about this.
Personally speaking, I would take a "fake" Gil Yaron, Murphy, Max, Kris Derrig or especially Bharat Khandekar aka OTPG any day over the "real" thing. Any of these men turn out superior instruments to the ones currently being produced on Massman drive; IMHO of course.

[seeker]

Originally Posted by baimo

.................If it says Gibson it should be made by Gibson. I have expensive strat and tele knock-offs but they both have the builder's name instead of Fender, Michael Tuttle who make the sweetest stainless steel frets and the nicest feeling neck that I have ever touched. I would not buy them if they said Fender.

My feelings exactly. An homage is one thing, a rip-off is something else.

[Watt]

Dan, I'm confused. Are you trying to legitimize your purchase of a fake Gibson or to condemn it?

The responses stating that the Max Les Pauls are ripoffs miss the mark. These guitars are highly prized and priced precisely because they were made by Max Baranet. And they were made, as I understand it, specifically at the request of Mr. Baranet's clients. If I recall, Dan has attempted to defend his purchase of a cheap fake Gibson by arguing that no one would mistake his guitar for the real thing and Gibson did not lose a sale. Well, the same could be said (but I believe with greater conviction) of the Max Les Pauls. Because they were made by Max Baranet, they are more valuable than most other modern Les Pauls and have a well-known, easily traceable provenance.

It's been suggested elsewhere that Max Baranet entered into some sort of arrangement Gibson, either before or after producing the historic Gibson copies. I don't know whether this is true. If it is, however, you have a simple answer to your "question": A copy that is authorized by the holder of a trademark is not equivalent to one that is not, even if the former is a really good copy and the latter is not. If anyone has information on the trademark question, I hope that they will share it.

[Eric_M]

Q:

Originally Posted by DanPanther

How is this any different than a Chinese Copy.

A:

Originally Posted by DanPanther

These are considered as good or better than REAL les Pauls.

Originally Posted by DanPanther

PLEASE don't say this is different.

It's ... not the same.

Originally Posted by DanPanther

How can all the purists reconcile the fact that in 20 years, someone may pay 6 figures for a FAKE Les Paul.

Fraud isn't the concern of "purists" alone, is it? These high-end replicas are collectible due to their scarcity, their association with Slash, etc. They're copies, yes, but folks are willing to pay 5 digits for them on their merits, over say a reissue Gibson. I suppose that's one way in which it differs from Chinese knockoffs; I mean, we're not talking the same type of shopper at all. One would maybe opt for his copy over an Epiphone, the other is maybe deciding between a Historic reissue and a non-Gibson replica. Ethically your point is taken.