Songs to practice modes

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Well, all the really great musicians I've had the opportunity to talk shop with have said more-or-less the same thing.

They're not thinking in terms of theory. They're thinking in terms of sounds. There are sounds in their head and they want to get them out.

So what I would encourage you to do is to take some of those songs that are things that you don't do and figure them out by ear. Don't worry about names (and that's all theory is, really - names for common practices). Listen, play, and study the songs until you know them. And you'll likely find that you can then, without trying, use the same techniques those musicians use.

I think this is good advice, but when they play quickly, this gets really hard to do. Chords can sometimes be a little rough also. But, I think I'm going to do this.

Maybe I'll find a cool tommy emmanuel song where he freestyles a lot, and try to figure out some stuff he does there.

Trouble is, he sometimes goes really fast, and uses a thumb pick, which can make some stuff really hard to do for me.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

Idk. maybe I don't wanna study modes.

OK...

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

I wanna study some theory that I can use to take my playing to another level.

Theory won't take your playing to another level. (Never did that for me anyway.) Your understanding maybe. Which is good, of course .

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

I though maybe modes might be something that could be used in soloing somehow.

No, not really. That's a common misunderstanding. Modes are something music is written in, like keys. You wouldn't say you'd "use keys in soloing" - because that's already given in the chord sequence. Modes are too.

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

Like maybe stuff like, in a diatonic chord progression, when the ii chord comes along, rather than play the key scale, like whatever mode ii tonic would be, you play the aeolian scale on top there. Essentially solo over the ii as though it were a vi.

Well, that would be introducing a random chromatic note. Chromatics are fine, but they need a reason.
Maybe a Bb on a Dm chord in key of C would be OK; but it wouldn't be "aeolian". It might be a passing note between A and B (either way). IOW, an added note, not an alternative note.

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

Idk, I'm not married to the idea of learning modes. But I'd like to learned some advanced stuff that is useful. Whether that is in improvising with chords, or solo kind of stuff.

What you need is chromatics. Use the given diatonic scale of the key (or modes), but add any of the 5 "outside" chromatics as passing notes. It's about contrast: "in" vs "out. All 12 notes are available at all times, it's about understanding the balance, the tensions.
Nothing to do with modes (unless it's a modal tune already).

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

Maybe my only limitation is my imagination, and my dexterity right now, idk. But I'd like to learn something.

Find some music that really turns you on, that sounds like that next level you want to get to.

[Dalegreen]

Just reading all of the posts related to modes here, and personally, the theoretical side has been very beneficial for myself. When I play, I just go with my ear, but I know there are elements of theory which always come thru in my voicings. I guess everyone approaches music their own way, but one thing for sure, the more you peek thru an open door, the more you realize how big the room is.
Take small steps, work on one mode at a time, hear the characteristics of the voicings and roll with it.

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by JonPR

OK...
Theory won't take your playing to another level. (Never did that for me anyway.) Your understanding maybe. Which is good, of course .
No, not really. That's a common misunderstanding. Modes are something music is written in, like keys. You wouldn't say you'd "use keys in soloing" - because that's already given in the chord sequence. Modes are too.
Well, that would be introducing a random chromatic note. Chromatics are fine, but they need a reason.
Maybe a Bb on a Dm chord in key of C would be OK; but it wouldn't be "aeolian". It might be a passing note between A and B (either way). IOW, an added note, not an alternative note.
What you need is chromatics. Use the given diatonic scale of the key (or modes), but add any of the 5 "outside" chromatics as passing notes. It's about contrast: "in" vs "out. All 12 notes are available at all times, it's about understanding the balance, the tensions.
Nothing to do with modes (unless it's a modal tune already).
Find some music that really turns you on, that sounds like that next level you want to get to.

To me, theory is the naming of sounds. If there is no more theory that can help me play better, then I am not interested in learning any more theory.

I don't however believe that is the case. I mean, it might not be something so universal as modes, but perhaps some sort of tips and tricks people like to do.

I use chromatic notes all the time. Imo the key is by far the most important thing for soloing. There is nothing more important the major key shape. You don't even need to learn any chords or know what a chord is, or what the chords are, or what key or mode you're in if you know that pattern.

You just find where the pattern fits, and away you go.

the chords are just notes taken from this anyway, most of the time.

Yes, you can play any of the 12 notes. But recognizing that 7 of them are the key and the other 5 are not, is a crucial piece of information. It is very helpful.

I use chromatic notes all the time. I often will play notes outside of the key.

I'm thinking though, there may be times, where you could really go out of it for a while. I notice this sometimes I feel. I don't know if it is particular songs that lend themselves well to that or what, but I think that by following some sort of pattern, it is possible to sustain playing outside notes for a bit, in that outside pattern, and then come back in.

I think there must be theory that supports this. And I think that would take my soloing to the next level if there was.

I'm all over playing inside, chromatic notes and all. But I think, that there are some concepts out there, that I could learn and use, that could let me go outside. And those would be odd, and difficult to use without just sounding awful. It would be the sort of thing you need to use sparingly and in a kind of clever and cautious way, something that isn't as fool proof as just playing in the key. not a pattern where you can just hit any notes, and it works great.

I might be wrong, maybe it is just my perception, but I get the feeling sometimes like people are doing something like this. And, actually, you know what? to be honest, I actually find myself doing something like this at times. Another pattern that works well with what's going on, but not with what you were just doing, unless you link it back nicely. And sometimes this pattern is not at all like the major scale pattern. Something that you can't just switch back and forth easily, but you can switch at the right times, and even stay in that other pattern for a good while, and then come back in a pleasing way. Things like this though have only happened to me in certain cases on certain songs. I've not found some universal thing like this that works everywhere. I don't know what it is when I do that sometimes, or why it works in that case, or what it's called. But I'm convinced those have a name, and that there are more like it that I've not discovered yet. Especially given that there are lots of scales and stuff that I don't know.

Maybe I'm not looking for modes, maybe modes can work this way sometimes, but only sometimes, and for reasons xyz. Maybe I am looking for some other scales, and they can be used sometimes for reasons xyz.

I am not really interested in learning songs where key changes on every chord. I don't really want to learn to keep up with chords that change everything all the time. More things that in certain cases will allow me to be a bit odd ball in respect to the dominant key of the piece. More than just playing passing notes, though passing notes do add some of this effect, and quite nicely.

To me actually the pentatonic is the main structure, the major key pattern is sort of, level 2 if you will, with semi-accidentals, and then the remaining 5 are the level 3 notes.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

Yes, you can play any of the 12 notes. But recognizing that 7 of them are the key and the other 5 are not, is a crucial piece of information. It is very helpful.

Lots of good ideas in this thread. I assume you're talking about single note improvising. I don't do that much anymore, but I've done a lot in the past. To me, the most important thing there is to listen to other players and steal licks. And by steal, I mean totally incorporate them into your playing, change them around, and even understand theoretically why they work, but mostly accumulate as big a collection of licks as you can. It's a matter of building vocabulary. You don't learn to speak by studying the dictionary or just studying grammer, tho those are useful tools. With speaking, you learned it all by listening to and imitating others, to the point that now it all blurs together, and you can say whatever you think. Same with musical "language". I'd dare same most good improvisors have learned tons of solos by other people, at least at some point in their life.

To the point of your quote above, Vic Wooten has a really fascinating demo on his DVD (I forget the name), where he has someone play accompaniment, and plays nothing BUT the 5 "wrong" notes. And he plays them with feeling, conviction, phrasing. Sounds really good, even tho all the notes are "wrong". Then he plays nothing but the "right" 7 notes, but plays with bad phrasing, no melody structure, etc. Then he asks "which sounded best?" and the answer's pretty obvious: the wrong notes with good phrasing.

If I was to start working on single-note soloing again, that's where I'd focus - phrasing, building vocabulary, etc, and the fastest way to do that is to copy and analyze other players solos that grab me. It will drive you into some theory, if you stop to figure out what chords a lick goes with, or why ti sounds cool. But your theory will come from a practical need to understand rather than just being some theoretical exercise.

[dneal]

Doug Young - A profoundly thought-provoking post, in many ways.

It did prompt me to look for what Victor Wooten was talking about. For others, HERE is Victor talking about focusing on the chromatic scale instead of modes. HERE is him recovering the point Doug was making about "5 wrong notes". I'm not sure they "worked" with the chords other than a very loose jazz interpretation, but the point of "feel" is hard to argue.

[Bern]

I think, the topic is moving away from Monk's question.
BTW, theory allows you to know which are the 5 wrong notes at any given time.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

To me, theory is the naming of sounds. If there is no more theory that can help me play better, then I am not interested in learning any more theory.

Fine!

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

I don't however believe that is the case. I mean, it might not be something so universal as modes, but perhaps some sort of tips and tricks people like to do.

Yes, and theory will provide names for those tips and tricks, at least for the musical sounds they make.
IOW, you start with the sounds (and the techniques you use to make them), and then use theory - if you need to - to name them.

Personally, I'm not a fan of "tips and tricks". The phrase smacks of shortcuts and escapes. It's more important to understand principles and concepts - ie overviews at a macro level, from which the micro level (tips and tricks) emerges naturally.
Principles and concepts, of course, invoke the dread work "theory"! But it's really only names and labels for sounds you probably already know and make, but which might give you a different perspective, illuminate more of the picture.

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

I use chromatic notes all the time. Imo the key is by far the most important thing for soloing.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

There is nothing more important the major key shape. You don't even need to learn any chords or know what a chord is, or what the chords are, or what key or mode you're in if you know that pattern.

You just find where the pattern fits, and away you go.

Yes, but you can get too attached to patterns. You certainly need to know how it relates to the chords, which means you need to know the chords (at least)!

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

the chords are just notes taken from this anyway, most of the time.

Exactly. But a chord sequence exists for a reason. The phrase "away you go" sounds as if you're saying random playing on the major scale is OK.

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

Yes, you can play any of the 12 notes. But recognizing that 7 of them are the key and the other 5 are not, is a crucial piece of information. It is very helpful.

That's just what I'm saying. And I don't believe you need anything else. In terms of pitched notes, what else is there, after all?
In fact, if there are "tips and tricks" I'd offer, they'd start with "forget the scale"! You know the scale (clearly) and you know what's diatonic and what's chromatic.
I presume (or hope) you also know the chord relationships, ie, how the 7+5 notes work with each chord in a sequence. (If you don't, that's your next essential area of study.)
What else is there? Everything else! Rhythm, phrasing, dynamics, tone, articulation, expression, etc etc.

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

I use chromatic notes all the time. I often will play notes outside of the key.

I'm thinking though, there may be times, where you could really go out of it for a while. I notice this sometimes I feel. I don't know if it is particular songs that lend themselves well to that or what, but I think that by following some sort of pattern, it is possible to sustain playing outside notes for a bit, in that outside pattern, and then come back in.

Yes, sure. It's a tricky skill.
The "outside pattern" needs to have its own sturdy logic, such as pentatonic riffs a half-step away; or repeated phrases that start "in" but end up "out" (or vice versa) - ie, the logic is in the repetition.
As you say, of course the pattern needs to come back in, which means resolve to chord tones. So a consciousness of the chords is essential at all times.
So maybe - in this context at least - you don't mean it when you say "You don't even need to learn any chords or know what a chord is, or what the chords are" .

I'd call this an advanced jazz skill, personally. In any music other than jazz, it would be unexpected and (even if done well) might sound plain "wrong".

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

I think there must be theory that supports this. And I think that would take my soloing to the next level if there was.

OK, not to get too pedantic about semantics - yes! But it does mean jazz theory. And you have to like jazz, because that's what you're talking about.
It would start with bebop, and move on from there.
You don't have to like all jazz (I certainly don't), but you have to understand where it's coming from: the concept of key, to be sure, but also secondary chords and substitutions, chromatic shifts, enclosures, reharmonisation, and other "jazz theory" concepts.
Most jazz theory is based on bebop practices, modified and expanded (substantially) by the modal revolution. Now, there's a constant interaction between old functional principles (keys, bebop, inside-outside, etc) and modal principles (chord-scales, sonorities, static harmonies); not forgetting blues, of course, which is a kind of primal mix of both principles from way back, and remains the soul of jazz.

Eg, you might find some modern jazz that you like, but in order to understand it you need to know that the musicians have come up through a full jazz education, absorbing its 100-year history of evolving styles and concepts.

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

I'm all over playing inside, chromatic notes and all. But I think, that there are some concepts out there, that I could learn and use, that could let me go outside.

But there's nothing more outside than chromatic notes. (Unless you want to get into microtones, which you do in blues anyhow )

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

And those would be odd, and difficult to use without just sounding awful. It would be the sort of thing you need to use sparingly and in a kind of clever and cautious way, something that isn't as fool proof as just playing in the key. not a pattern where you can just hit any notes, and it works great.

Sure. As I say, it's essentially about finding patterns for the chromatics, if you're going to use them in groups rather than just singly in passing.

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

I might be wrong, maybe it is just my perception, but I get the feeling sometimes like people are doing something like this. And, actually, you know what? to be honest, I actually find myself doing something like this at times. Another pattern that works well with what's going on, but not with what you were just doing, unless you link it back nicely. And sometimes this pattern is not at all like the major scale pattern. Something that you can't just switch back and forth easily, but you can switch at the right times, and even stay in that other pattern for a good while, and then come back in a pleasing way. Things like this though have only happened to me in certain cases on certain songs. I've not found some universal thing like this that works everywhere. I don't know what it is when I do that sometimes, or why it works in that case, or what it's called. But I'm convinced those have a name, and that there are more like it that I've not discovered yet. Especially given that there are lots of scales and stuff that I don't know.

Sounds to me like you have the basic idea; and it's worked for you at times, but you just don't have it fully under control.
But thinking of other scales is the wrong focus (but see below ). Your instinct about "7 in and 5 out" is the real foundation, pretty much all of the time. The "7 in" depends on the key (or mode) the piece is written in, and which the chords come from (allowing for the constant shifting of key that occurs in jazz tunes).
If your outside phrasing has worked, it's because you've inadvertently applied a familiar pattern to those 5 outside notes (as well as successfully brought them back in). Do you realise they actually form a pentatonic scale in their own right? Eg, the 5 chromatic notes in C major form the F# major pent scale (D# minor pent). IOW, a major pent a tritone away from the keynote.

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

Maybe I'm not looking for modes, maybe modes can work this way sometimes, but only sometimes, and for reasons xyz. Maybe I am looking for some other scales, and they can be used sometimes for reasons xyz.

Well, there are such things as diminished and wholetone scales, which you should know (and of course know their applications).
There are the famous "bebop scales", but those are only diatonic scales with an extra chromatic passing note: more a practice than scales in their own right.
And of course, there are the modes of melodic minor, each with very specific jazz applications.
So maybe you should research those:
1. melodic minor modes, in particular mode VII (altered scale, for V7 chords) and mode IV (lydian dominant, for bII7 or bVII7 chords);
2. diminished scale - two modes, WH dim (for dim7 chords) and HW dim (for 7b9 chords).
These will give you tried-and-tested bebop and post-bop-style sounds, provided you know the correct chord applications. (Should be plenty of lessons and demos online.)
Each of them is a way of handling certain groups of chromatics within a tonal (key) context, that's the point. Resolution - on to a following chord - is still the key (literally!).

Originally Posted by Monk of Funk

To me actually the pentatonic is the main structure, the major key pattern is sort of, level 2 if you will, with semi-accidentals, and then the remaining 5 are the level 3 notes.

Yes, pretty much how I see it.
Except I tend to see the pent of each chord, not just the key. (If that's what you mean, then I'm 100% with you!)
The pent of each chord is still a subset of the overall key scale, but keeps you "inside", whereas the pent of the key will be partially outside on some of the chords.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Bern

I think, the topic is moving away from Monk's question.
BTW, theory allows you to know which are the 5 wrong notes at any given time.

No, your ear should tell you that . Theory allows you to name them.
(He's already moved away from the modes emphasis, btw.)

[Bern]

Originally Posted by JonPR

No, your ear should tell you that . Theory allows you to name them.

Semantics, Jon...you know exactly what I meant.

[Dalegreen]

I went to a Victor Wooten workshop three years ago when he was up on the west coast of BC. When it comes to right or wrong (notes), he was quick to add, if you are worried about the "wrong" note, on either side of it is the "right" note.
He was basically enforcing the idea that there really are no "wrong" notes, as other postings have mentioned, it is all in the phrasing.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Bern

Semantics, Jon...you know exactly what I meant.

Uh-huh . I just like to poke my pedantic nose in at such moments...

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Dalegreen

I went to a Victor Wooten workshop three years ago when he was up on the west coast of BC. When it comes to right or wrong (notes), he was quick to add, if you are worried about the "wrong" note, on either side of it is the "right" note.
He was basically enforcing the idea that there really are no "wrong" notes, as other postings have mentioned, it is all in the phrasing.

Yes, a few old jazz sayings make that point:
"For any wrong note, the right one is a half-step away." [Anon.]
"There's no such thing as a wrong note, only a wrong time to play it." [Anon.]
"Do not fear mistakes; there are none." [Miles Davis]

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Lots of good ideas in this thread. I assume you're talking about single note improvising. I don't do that much anymore, but I've done a lot in the past. To me, the most important thing there is to listen to other players and steal licks. And by steal, I mean totally incorporate them into your playing, change them around, and even understand theoretically why they work, but mostly accumulate as big a collection of licks as you can. It's a matter of building vocabulary. You don't learn to speak by studying the dictionary or just studying grammer, tho those are useful tools. With speaking, you learned it all by listening to and imitating others, to the point that now it all blurs together, and you can say whatever you think. Same with musical "language". I'd dare same most good improvisors have learned tons of solos by other people, at least at some point in their life.

To the point of your quote above, Vic Wooten has a really fascinating demo on his DVD (I forget the name), where he has someone play accompaniment, and plays nothing BUT the 5 "wrong" notes. And he plays them with feeling, conviction, phrasing. Sounds really good, even tho all the notes are "wrong". Then he plays nothing but the "right" 7 notes, but plays with bad phrasing, no melody structure, etc. Then he asks "which sounded best?" and the answer's pretty obvious: the wrong notes with good phrasing.

If I was to start working on single-note soloing again, that's where I'd focus - phrasing, building vocabulary, etc, and the fastest way to do that is to copy and analyze other players solos that grab me. It will drive you into some theory, if you stop to figure out what chords a lick goes with, or why ti sounds cool. But your theory will come from a practical need to understand rather than just being some theoretical exercise.

I'm not just talking about single note improvisation, but improvising over progressions, whether it is one note 2 or whatever.

The problem with stealing licks is that it can be tough to ear them out because they blast by so quick.

I agree with that, phrasing and timing and feel are the most important parts of music to me. The notes, I find definitely matter, but are secondary.

I still find that the 5-7-5 collections of notes are very important to know. It doesn't mean you have to play those, but knowing them and their sound, I find is very important.

That said, I'm very surprised they managed to make something cool using only the 5 outside notes and nothing more. I've never tried that, but it seems to me like that would be very difficult. I'd like to hear that.

[Monk of Funk]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Fine!
Yes, and theory will provide names for those tips and tricks, at least for the musical sounds they make.
IOW, you start with the sounds (and the techniques you use to make them), and then use theory - if you need to - to name them.

I can't do it in this order on a forum. I can do this by listening to people only. But if the licks have theory names and stuff like that, which they must have some sort of explanation, then that's something I would be looking for. So, if anybody knows cool things like that, I'd be interested to know.

Personally, I'm not a fan of "tips and tricks". The phrase smacks of shortcuts and escapes. It's more important to understand principles and concepts - ie overviews at a macro level, from which the micro level (tips and tricks) emerges naturally.
Principles and concepts, of course, invoke the dread work "theory"! But it's really only names and labels for sounds you probably already know and make, but which might give you a different perspective, illuminate more of the picture.

this seems like a contradiction to me. Either theory can help me play "better" guitar, as in give me more tools, like more colors than I had before. Or tips and tricks can. I am not the best guitarist in the world. I can improve a lot still.

Either there are strong more foundation typed things in theory that I can use, or there are ways of using the ones I already know, that I can use, or both.

I agree.

you did say though that the key can't help me solo. Which I find is the most important piece of theory for learning to solo.

Yes, but you can get too attached to patterns. You certainly need to know how it relates to the chords, which means you need to know the chords (at least)!

depends what you mean by "know" if you mean hear them, then I'm with you. If you mean know what they are called, and what their shapes are on the guitar, then, while I think that can help a bit, maybe for doing like arpeggiated chord runs or something, I don't find it necessary at all. I'm beginning to get to the point where I can tell what the progression is by hearing it, some things definitely, others are hazy, so it's getting a bit harder to play over stuff that I don't know what the chords are. But I have no "issue" not knowing the chords. I might arpeggiate a chord, not because it is the chord playing, but because it builds the 13th of the chord that's playing. But I don't need to know which one it is, if you know what I mean. I just need to know what I'm hearing, and which 3 notes of the scale, I want to hit on top of that. But, I will say that looking at the scale in terms of chord degrees, is very useful in general.

Exactly. But a chord sequence exists for a reason. The phrase "away you go" sounds as if you're saying random playing on the major scale is OK.
That's just what I'm saying. And I don't believe you need anything else. In terms of pitched notes, what else is there, after all?
In fact, if there are "tips and tricks" I'd offer, they'd start with "forget the scale"! You know the scale (clearly) and you know what's diatonic and what's chromatic.
I presume (or hope) you also know the chord relationships, ie, how the 7+5 notes work with each chord in a sequence. (If you don't, that's your next essential area of study.)
What else is there? Everything else! Rhythm, phrasing, dynamics, tone, articulation, expression, etc etc.

I agree with all of this. You can't just hit random notes, I meant you can make grammatically correct sentences, that don't mean anything. But first the pentatonic, will work very well and be more fool proof, work better with random notes, but really, how good could that be? then, the major scale, and then all 12 notes.

I'm not sure what you mean by 7+5 notes. I know the role of the dominant chord works. I know the circle of fifths exists, but I don't "know it" because I don't find it tremendously useful. To me, it seems like nothing more than the information that often that next chord you want to hear, is a 5th away.

Yes, sure. It's a tricky skill.
The "outside pattern" needs to have its own sturdy logic, such as pentatonic riffs a half-step away; or repeated phrases that start "in" but end up "out" (or vice versa) - ie, the logic is in the repetition.
As you say, of course the pattern needs to come back in, which means resolve to chord tones. So a consciousness of the chords is essential at all times.
So maybe - in this context at least - you don't mean it when you say "You don't even need to learn any chords or know what a chord is, or what the chords are" .

I'd call this an advanced jazz skill, personally. In any music other than jazz, it would be unexpected and (even if done well) might sound plain "wrong".
OK, not to get too pedantic about semantics - yes! But it does mean jazz theory. And you have to like jazz, because that's what you're talking about.

hmmm, I would like to explore some of this I think. I need to hear it in sound. Well, you don't need to "know" what the chords are here either technically. You just need to hear what they are, and know which tone you want to hear. Often the tones you want to hear are the chord tones, but it is not necessary that you recognize that fact. But, I would still recommend learning those things. It's not necessary, but it's like, a little extra edge, to recognize what it is you're doing.

I like some Jazz, going too crazy weird and off, I don't like. I like a little bit off. Miles davis? me no like. Oscar Peterson, don't listen to it in my mp3, but it's still amazing.

It would start with bebop, and move on from there.
You don't have to like all jazz (I certainly don't), but you have to understand where it's coming from: the concept of key, to be sure, but also secondary chords and substitutions, chromatic shifts, enclosures, reharmonisation, and other "jazz theory" concepts.
Most jazz theory is based on bebop practices, modified and expanded (substantially) by the modal revolution. Now, there's a constant interaction between old functional principles (keys, bebop, inside-outside, etc) and modal principles (chord-scales, sonorities, static harmonies); not forgetting blues, of course, which is a kind of primal mix of both principles from way back, and remains the soul of jazz.

Eg, you might find some modern jazz that you like, but in order to understand it you need to know that the musicians have come up through a full jazz education, absorbing its 100-year history of evolving styles and concepts.
But there's nothing more outside than chromatic notes. (Unless you want to get into microtones, which you do in blues anyhow )
Sure. As I say, it's essentially about finding patterns for the chromatics, if you're going to use them in groups rather than just singly in passing.
Sounds to me like you have the basic idea; and it's worked for you at times, but you just don't have it fully under control.

I don't much want to learn bebop. I would like to use some of their concepts and apply them to different music. It works for me just fine, and I have it totally under control. I can play basically any idea I have. I am looking for a different angle, sort of a new source of ideas. Again, it's not that I feel like I'm out of ideas, it's more like, I will hear others plays, and they will play stuff that I would never think of playing. I might think of a bunch of stuff they will never think of also, but I feel like they might know some theory I don't that might be a reason for some of the ideas they have. All I know really is "the pattern" and there are pages and pages of theory you can find. I don't know any of it. I feel there has to be more.