Theory is boring to me..

[jasperguitar]

Mr Pompous here .. ha ha ha

I got wondering this yesterday.

I have a "book" .. [ .. that is a book son, a book, full of notes boy I say I say ]

Anyhow, my book of scales, has major, minor, blues [ minor pent. ] .. major pent, the three minor scales [ natural, harmonic, melodic ] and

Mixolydian, Dorian, Lydian scales..

This is a Hal Leonard book, really just a few pages of scales, with pattern
fingering.

So, I'm playing the different scales, having more fun than an arrogant, pompous guitar player should have.. and I got wondering.

When is the scale a scale and when is the scale a mode.

Or, is that when is a mode a scale, etc.

If, for example, I play the C maj scale, but start on the second tone, D, and end of the 9th tone, D.. that is a Dorian mode of the C scale, correct?

But is also, just a Dorian scale..

with the interval steps being :.. 1, 2, flt 3, 4, 5, 6, flt 7

Or.. D, E, [ half step ] F, ...

The basic C scale, just starting on a different tone than the root tone..


Not to sound too arrogant or pompous,,

But ??

thanks.. ha ha ha ha ha ..



And the phy

[jasperguitar]

One more ..

I got some info off of Wiki..

Its really funny to read, because it is pretty academic..

Even I, a pompous and arrogant musician, laughed when I read some of
this stuff...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_modes

[mr. beaumont]

Scale and mode are almost interchangable...most of the time when people refer to modes, they're talking about the modes of the major scale--Ionian, Dorian, etc.

I actually steer clear of the word mode...every scale has modes...

And yes, playing a C major scale from D to D is a D Dorian mode, or scale. Accenting the b3 (the F) and the sixth (the B) will give you a better taste of the "Dorian Sound."


As for dissonances...

There's only one, concerning pentatonics, that grinds my gears, and that's when someone playing "bluesy" on a tune in a major key uses the minor pentatonic and hangs on the b3 over the I or I7 chord.

If you listen to the great bluesmen, they all do something with that third...bend it up a little, slip up to the M3, etc...

[brahmz118]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Simple songs are instituted at the beginning so students play and sing at the same time, and there really are no dissonances so drastic as to sound horrible (clash as you put it)...which is the point of playing pentatonic in jams. No dissonances so bad that they push into the horrible realm.

No disagreement with this. However, what about the 4th and 7th scale degrees that are removed? Do those 2 notes create 'dissonance so drastic as to sound horrible'? If not, what is the advantage of taking them out? (As I mentioned, there are advantages to using the pentatonic, but is dissonance avoidance really one of them?)

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by brahmz118

No disagreement with this. However, what about the 4th and 7th scale degrees that are removed? Do those 2 notes create 'dissonance so drastic as to sound horrible'? If not, what is the advantage of taking them out? (As I mentioned, there are advantages to using the pentatonic, but is dissonance avoidance really one of them?)

I think the difference is lj is talking about a pentatonic used melodically, or in various kinds of counterpoint with itself. IOW, the 5 notes of C major pentatonic can be used in any harmonic combination, they won't produce any nasty dissonance - because no half-steps (or tritones or major 7ths or minor 9ths) can occur together. (Major 2nds produce a mild dissonance, but less problematic.)

The awkward dissonances you were mentioning before were what happens when a pentatonic is applied to a diatonic chord progression which includes those missing half-steps. So when C major pent is used over a G chord, then you risk the B-C minor 9th, which produces the "avoid note" sound. (It's an avoid interval, really.)
IOW, the "no half-step" quality of pentatonics is not an advantage in most normal musical situations, because half-steps will occur anyway, between pentatonic and the chord backing (unless of course you avoid those notes when the dissonances threaten to occur, which - as I think you said - means you may as well apply that rule to the full scale in the first place).

The advantage of pentatonics in improvisation - as I see it, and you may agree - is that they provide an easy source of strong-sounding melodic phrases. You can play at random on a pentatonic and it will sound good - internally anyway (disregarding any chord backing). The strength of some phrases can be so good as to override any dissonances caused by the chords. Even so, one always needs to have an ear out for how the pent sits with each chord.

The blues practice of using the tonic minor pent over each chord (major I, IV, V)) is a special case, of course. The clashes are an essential part of the blues sound.
I kind of agree with mr beaumont that blues players tend not to play the b3 straight over the I (or indeed over the V). But that (IMO) is because the blue 3rd isn't minor anyway, it's in between minor and major (no fixed point).
And that's in single-note melodic improvisation. You do get the famous 7#9 chord used as a blues tonic, in which the M3 and unbent m3 sit quite happily together in the same chord (although it's crucial m3 is above M3...).

[jackcooper]

Originally Posted by brahmz118

No disagreement with this. However, what about the 4th and 7th scale degrees that are removed? Do those 2 notes create 'dissonance so drastic as to sound horrible'? If not, what is the advantage of taking them out? (As I mentioned, there are advantages to using the pentatonic, but is dissonance avoidance really one of them?)

The advantage is that most guitar students want to get an authentic blues/rock sound as early as possible (which comes pretty natural when using the pentatonic scale).

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by JonPR

...The advantage of pentatonics in improvisation - as I see it, and you may agree - is that they provide an easy source of strong-sounding melodic phrases. You can play at random on a pentatonic and it will sound good - internally anyway (disregarding any chord backing). The strength of some phrases can be so good as to override any dissonances caused by the chords.

Students tend to not know what to play when it comes to lead work or jamming, so if they can play any note without fear of hitting a wrong one, then they become bolder more quickly in playing lead lines.

I think the weakness is that they are also not very creative, and tend to fall into nonsensical (musically) lines. Pentatonic runs are a start point, not an end unto themselves.

That is certainly the way pentatonic intervals are taught and used with elementary students who have teachers trained in Orff/Kodaly method. Adding the half steps as the last additions to the equation before starting in on chromatic work.

The beginning students taught in this manner also start rhythmically with no syncopation and it is added a few years into the method (discovered by the students themselves actually). And interval is more important for the first couple years than specific pitches (we are talking 5-6 year olds in this case).

[Da Sugarbear]

Very generous response, Jeff...

[Alexrkstr]

Who's ordering the pizza?

Chicago style, please.

[jasperguitar]

This is one of the best forum threads ever... many good postings, a bit of fun, some poking, a scathing critique.. ha ha ha ha ha

So.. I figured, I'd better learn the names of these modes, or alternate scales.

Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian.

I came up with a word association thing..

The last three? Make - mixolydian A - aeolian List - locrian.

The first 4?

I Ionian
D Dorian
P Phrygian
L Lydian

I {d}on't {p}lay

First three .. I don't play
Last three .. make a list

I'll just need to remember the 5th tone is names Lydia .. after the park in
Ashland Oregon..

Which was full of hippies called Lydia Bugs, when I visited.. ha ha ha