Question about the tuning stability of nylon strings

[VLJ]

I recently bought a Cordoba FCWE that was supposed to be in dead-mint condition. As it turned out, there were two frets with divits on the high strings, and the string height was higher than I'd prefer. Also, the previous owner did a horribly messy job of stringing the guitar.

I took the guitar to Gary Brawer in SF and had him Plek it and restring it. No more divits. Smooth as silk bends and vibrato. Once I brought her home, I sanded down the base of the saddle to lower the bridge. Now it's just a bit lower than the recommended 2.5mm at the twelfth fret on the high E string and 3.0 mm at the twelfth fret on the low E string. I would prefer it lower still, since I'm coming from the world of electric guitars, but I'm okay with where it is now. With this current setup I had to fine-tune the truss rod to avoid buzzing on the open G string, so I doubt I could go much lower anyway.

Gary didn't have any Savarez strings on hand, so he used D'Addarios. I wanted to try the strings Cordoba uses with my guitar, so I swapped the D'Addarios for a set of high tension Savarez Crystal Corum 500CJs.

I can't honestly say that I notice any difference between the D'Addarios and Savarez strings. Maybe the Savarez treble strings are a touch louder and brighter, but that's about it, and I wouldn't bet on it. If there is a difference, it's very minor at best. I would probably still prefer the high E string to be louder.

Anyway, the reason for this post is I'm wondering whether it's normal for the strings on this type of guitar to go flat any time I let the guitar sit for a few hours. When I initially put the new strings on, I did the usual pull-and-stretch routine I do with electrics. Basically, I stretch the crap out of each string after tuning, then I retune. With electrics, it tends to take a an hour or so of playing before the tuning stabilizes. From that point forward, I can leave the guitar overnight and when I check the tuning the next day it will still be in tune, or very near so.

Not so, with these nylon strings. It's been a week now, and every morning they've gone seriously flat. I tune it up, go to work, and eight hours later they've gone flat again. I tune it up before going to bed, and they're flat again the following morning. They all go flat, but the wound strings are the worst offenders.

As I said, I'm new to nylon strings. I had a Carvin CL450 many years ago, but didn't keep it long enough to determine whether those strings also went flat every few hours. Certainly my steel-string acoustics never had this issue. They were as stable as my electrics.

So, is this normal for classical and flamenco guitars? Should I simply expect to have to retune from scratch every time I let the guitar sit for a few hours?

[Rodger Knox]

Yes, it's normal, just like steel strings. The difference is steel strings stretch out in a couple of hours, nylon strings may take a couple of weeks. They do eventually become stable.

[rick-slo]

It does take longer for nylon strings to settle though a day's time should be sufficient if the strings are securely attached at peg head and at bridge. Nylon strings are more pitch stability temperature sensitive than are steel strings. To avoid buzzing on the open G string raising nut the slot height would be a more appropriate, focused, fix than adjusting the truss rod.

[mr. beaumont]

Best thing to do after restringing a nylon string guitar is play the heck out of it and keep retuning. Speeds up the process considerably.

[VLJ]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

It does take longer for nylon strings to settle though a day's time should be sufficient if the strings are securely attached at peg head and at bridge. Nylon strings are more pitch stability temperature sensitive than are steel strings. To avoid buzzing on the open G string raising nut the slot height would be a more appropriate, focused, fix than adjusting the truss rod.

I lowered the bridge to such an extent that I didn't mind adding a bit of relief to the neck. The relief at the 7th fret is now an easy .008" or a tight .010", so still right in the ballpark for a classical or flamenco. I use a very thick pick and have an extremely heavy attack—I'm likely atypical of the usual FCWE player, as I'm neither a classical nor flamenco player—so I've never been able to get away with buzz-free flat or near-flat fretboards. I always have to allow for some relief.

Which reminds me, what is the consensus here regarding the use of truss rods with classical or flamenco guitars? I know that they're frowned upon by makers of "traditional" high-end classical guitars, but they sure seem to be mighty useful in the real world.

I simply can't buy the argument that they add so much weight as to pose an issue, so the greater question would be whether they affect the tone? I know Kenny Hill uses them in his guitars, and Cordoba uses them in all of theirs, but Tom Prisloe eschews them in his Pavans, and also in his own models. I mention Tom Prisloe because I'm thinking of adding a second acoustic, this time a solid rosewood/cedar cutaway, and I'm leaning towards a custom-spec'd Pavan TP-30 cutaway.

They have no truss rod, however. He says they aren't necessary.

Perhaps this is true, but in my experience it's never a bad thing to have them, and sometimes they prove to be a downright necessity, so I'm more than a bit leery.

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by VLJ

I simply can't buy the argument that they add so much weight as to pose an issue, so the greater question would be whether they affect the tone?

Actually, it's the additional weight that may affect the tone. The neck resonance does not usually contribute to the tone, but if the neck is light enough and flexible enough, it can. That's not necessarily a good thing, but it can be.

I do agree with you, I'd never build a neck without a double action truss rod. I'll also agree that they are not necessary, but they do make it easier to construct the neck. Without a truss rod, the neck has to have almost exactly the right stiffness for the strings to pull the right amount of relief, or has to be stiff enough that the strings don't pull any relief and the relief is built into the fretboard.

Originally Posted by VLJ

I recently bought a Cordoba FCWE that was supposed to be in dead-mint condition. As it turned out, there were two frets with divits on the high strings, and the string height was higher than I'd prefer. Also, the previous owner did a horribly messy job of stringing the guitar.

I took the guitar to Gary Brawer in SF and had him Plek it and restring it. No more divits. Smooth as silk bends and vibrato. Once I brought her home, I sanded down the base of the saddle to lower the bridge. Now it's just a bit lower than the recommended 2.5mm at the twelfth fret on the high E string and 3.0 mm at the twelfth fret on the low E string. I would prefer it lower still, since I'm coming from the world of electric guitars, but I'm okay with where it is now. With this current setup I had to fine-tune the truss rod to avoid buzzing on the open G string, so I doubt I could go much lower anyway.

Gary didn't have any Savarez strings on hand, so he used D'Addarios. I wanted to try the strings Cordoba uses with my guitar, so I swapped the D'Addarios for a set of high tension Savarez Crystal Corum 500CJs.

I can't honestly say that I notice any difference between the D'Addarios and Savarez strings. Maybe the Savarez treble strings are a touch louder and brighter, but that's about it, and I wouldn't bet on it. If there is a difference, it's very minor at best. I would probably still prefer the high E string to be louder.

Anyway, the reason for this post is I'm wondering whether it's normal for the strings on this type of guitar to go flat any time I let the guitar sit for a few hours. When I initially put the new strings on, I did the usual pull-and-stretch routine I do with electrics. Basically, I stretch the crap out of each string after tuning, then I retune. With electrics, it tends to take a an hour or so of playing before the tuning stabilizes. From that point forward, I can leave the guitar overnight and when I check the tuning the next day it will still be in tune, or very near so.

Not so, with these nylon strings. It's been a week now, and every morning they've gone seriously flat. I tune it up, go to work, and eight hours later they've gone flat again. I tune it up before going to bed, and they're flat again the following morning. They all go flat, but the wound strings are the worst offenders.

As I said, I'm new to nylon strings. I had a Carvin CL450 many years ago, but didn't keep it long enough to determine whether those strings also went flat every few hours. Certainly my steel-string acoustics never had this issue. They were as stable as my electrics.

So, is this normal for classical and flamenco guitars? Should I simply expect to have to retune from scratch every time I let the guitar sit for a few hours?

Which D'Addario strings are on your guitar? Just curious.

[hesson11]

As others have said, nylons are a world apart from steel strings when it comes to settling into tune. A couple of tips:

Do not stretch the strings the way you would a steel string, i.e., pulling on them after they are in place. This can actually thin them out unevenly and lead to intonation problems. If you're going to stretch them, do it along the entire length before you attach them to the rollers. Although even this won't make much difference.

When you wrap the strings around the peg-head rollers, pull them as tight as you possibly can. Leave zero slack. This is because the entire length of the string stretches as it settles into tune, including the portion of the string that is wrapped around the roller.

If you can, restring the guitar when you're going to be around it for a while. That way you can retune it every 10 or 15 minutes or so to help stabilize the strings.

Have patience and realize that, no matter what you do, it's going to take a while for strings to settle into tune. And they will not stay that way anything close to the way steel strings do.

Also, the action you're talking about is pretty low for nylon-string guitars, even a flamenco-style guitar. Nylons vibrate in a wider arc than steel strings and need more room above the fretboard, especially if you have a heavy attack, as you mentioned. Needless to say, use of a pick is highly unusual with a nylon-string guitar, let alone using a pick with a heavy attack. So you've got to expect some sort of compromises. The thing to do is try to find the compromises that work for you.

Good luck!
-Bob

P.S. I love truss rods, but that's because I pretty much need them. Hand/wrist injuries demand that I achieve maximum playing ease through low relief and low action. A tough balancing act! I don't believe the negatively affect the performance or sound of the guitar.

[VLJ]

Originally Posted by m-thirty-great

Which D'Addario strings are on your guitar? Just curious.

I have no idea. I replaced them with the Savarez strings the very next day.

[dkstott]

for my Cordoba GK Pro, I've settled on Normal Tension strings (Savarez Cantina 510AR). I like the Alliance trebles sound and feel. The bass strings in the Cantina Set have amazing sound.

I too come from steel string playing & had trouble with buzzing from necks with no relief.

The truss rod is a wonderful thing, I cranked mine to add relief to the neck to minimize buzzing. My action is also pretty low by classical standards. I am strictly a fingerstyle player, so there is no issue with picks influencing the sound.

play on dude!!

[Norman2]

Hi, You will find that different brands of strings settle faster or slower. I use
D'Addario Pro Arte Dynacore High tension and they settle fine in two days. After
that minimal tunning. The Savarez Cantigas I was using did not settle until 4-5 days. Each brand is different. I have an Almansa 457 concert classical and it just likes D'Addario Dynacores with Titanium trebles. You will doing some amount
of experimenting until you find strings the strings you will use. Regards
Norman2

[ewalling]

It's just one of those things. With my nylon string guitars, I always check the tuning before I start playing, and usually something needs tightening, even after strings have supposedly worn in. With my steel string guitars, I only check the tuning if it sounds noticeably off.

[Richard_H]

I use D'Addarios with Titanium Trebles. I love the sound but these are constantly going sharp when I play - even after more than a month since I put them on.

This is due to the fact that when nylon warms up it shrinks and the tension goes up. When it cools it expands and the tension goes down.

This fix is that when I first sit down to play and find that the strings are flat, instead of tuning them with the tuner this is what I do:

Pinch the string. next to the bridge, between the thumb and forefinger. Run your fingers up and down the string a few times - the friction will heat the string.

While watching the tuner, play the string once every second or so. You'll see that the string starts extremely sharp. But after a few second it will cool and stabilize exactly in tune. It's returned to the tension it was at when you were last playing.

This has worked well for me - hope it works as well for you!

[LSemmens]

Way back when (I haven't owned a classical guitar in 40 odd years) I used to tune every string sharp and play the heck out of them. After a few hours I could then drop back to normal tuning (A440) and they would remain relatively stable. And yes, they are fussier than steel strings. So be prepared to keep tuning.