Songwriting: Melody vs. Lyrics

[Bob from Brooklyn]

Originally Posted by jessupe

A worn saddle and a whip

so this is the start of the non-rhyming verse2?

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn Bob

so this is the start of the non-rhyming verse2?

yup, thats right, or, really part 2 of verse 1, each verse will have 2 sets of 4 lines, so we have the first part of the first verse with what we have so far and one line of the second part of first verse , your line next, no rhyming with whip

.................................................. ...

When he wandered the plains in days long ago
He created a legend that all would soon know
His mane was white and his tail was black
And he carried with him a young boy named Jack

A worn saddle and a whip

[Bob from Brooklyn]

When he wandered the plains in days long ago
He created a legend that all would soon know
His mane was white and his tail was black
And he carried with him a young boy named Jack

A worn saddle and a whip
Was all that they had

[jessupe]

When he wandered the plains in days long ago
He created a legend that all would soon know
His mane was white and his tail was black
And he carried with him a young boy named Jack

A worn saddle and a whip
Was all that they had
riding off into the land

[Bob from Brooklyn]

When he wandered the plains in days long ago
He created a legend that all would soon know
His mane was white and his tail was black
And he carried with him a young boy named Jack

A worn saddle and a whip
Was all that they had
riding off into the land
On that December day

[jessupe]

verse 1

When he wandered the plains in days long ago
He created a legend that all would soon know
His mane was white and his tail was black
And he carried with him a young boy named Jack

A worn saddle and a whip
Was all that they had
riding off into the land
On that December day

bridge {can have rhyme, 3 lines}

cold air and hot breath

[Tele1111]

Hey everybody. I just wanted to say, though I have no intention of joining in, jessupe is doing a very good job. What he’s doing (and leading you through) is bound to be fruitful for all. Nice to see.

Mark

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by Tele1111

Hey everybody. I just wanted to say, though I have no intention of joining in, jessupe is doing a very good job. What he’s doing (and leading you through) is bound to be fruitful for all. Nice to see.

Mark

thanks, my hope with this, besides finishing it, is after the lyrics are done to;

1. discuss what we have come up, going over the style, things we did related to prose, what could be better, what could change, how we approached it, and differnt ways we could.

2. after all that, then we can do the same "mechanical" process with a chord structure and see how one may work with trying to "cram" these lyrics over it, what would work with given parametrs, and what would not.

really I think having or developing an academic knowledge of authors and their various writing styles helps give one a pallet of "tricks" one can use.

For now this is just a "fun" {hopefully} exercise on formulaic song writing that can at the very least give one and idea of how to approach formula style "mechanical" writing. And perhaps give one some ideas on getting some starting material, even better , actually very good songs can and do come from this "write 50 formula songs and maybe 2 are good" kind of thing.

One thing I will say that can be VERY important with this is; once the lyrics are written down, and you generically pick some chords to try to start singing the words into a melody over the lyrics, often times what you have written will NEED some re writing, and the most common way to re write is to try to eliminate words that are not needed, to achieve a certain economy. This is often needed as "we" often find it very hard to melodically cram all the syllables that have been written down in over the chords, depending on the changes that get dictated.

so the more you do this the more you learn to say more with less, somehow does this not only work out for the music part well, but if we study "hit songs" in any genre that uses lyrics besides maybe rap/hiphop,we see that this less is more approach is often the norm. We want few words that stimulate large thought landscapes...

just like me
they long to be
close to you

super simple as it gets, yet lots of story,information and thoughts attached to it.


Also;Member Loobhurst posted a video of him writing a song over the music that was done first. This is a very good video that shows how many people who have the music first will approach song writing.

Admittedly, imo it is an easier approach than writing lyrics and then the music. Bit sometmes you can come up with great words that can fit over something you either already have, or just come up with

[Bob from Brooklyn]

When he wandered the plains in days long ago
He created a legend that all would soon know
His mane was white and his tail was black
And he carried with him a young boy named Jack

A worn saddle and a whip
Was all that they had
riding off into the land
On that December day

bridge {can have rhyme, 3 lines}

cold air and hot breath
Riding hard outta Joliet

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn Bob

Hi, first time down this part of the dial thanks to our friend Kerbie.

One thing I've resolved to do this year is to try to up my game at songwriting. I always have a couple of nice melodies in my head. Nothing too complex but certainly passable.

Lyric writing is something else. It certainly doesn't come naturally to me. I really have to sit down and work at at.

I have a couple of 'how to write songs' books around. One of them was the type that had exercises at the end of each chapter. One of the exercises was to simply sit down for 20 minutes and write whatever came into your head.

This seemed simple enough. I committed myself to 20 minutes each night. The blank page can be intimidating but even on the driest of nights I forced myself to write a couple of lines or phrases. Some nights I would get on a little run and go over 20 minutes organically which made me happy.

After a couple of weeks things seem to be getting easier. I have a small handful of songs in the works. I want to keep it down to a few that I can really focus on. I even find myself at various times of the day coming up with some lyrical ideas and writing notes on my phone for later when I get home.

I'm interested in any other techniques that you folks use to get things going and what has worked for you.

Thanks!

I think the working at it 20 +mins. regularly is a great idea and something I did when I first started and need to get back to.

Here is another thought, via an interesting personal anecdote. And one I intend to use a song theme (someday)

I was sitting in a small bar/tavern in a tiny town in the middle of nowhere, in 1976
There was the bartender, 3 or 4 others and me.
A guy walks in the back door sits down on a chair at the poorly lit back of bar, and starts playing an acoustic guitar (no sound system),

I'm sitting at the bar and after about 4 or 5 songs I say the the bartender "that guy sounds a lot like Creadance Clearwater" he turns around, smiles and say's "it should that's John Fogerty "

So later I got to chat with him a while and we talked about songwriting . He said he often started with a tune just chords then to develop an melody he might just sing nonsense words --- la, bedop, tada. pop dang wap do wah... etc.

Then with the melody more developed he would the start consider lyrical phrases . I have done this also a few times when lyrics seem particularly had to come by.

[KevWind]

A worn saddle and a whip
Was all that they had
riding off into the land
On that December day

I really like the second verse theme but would possibly consider reversing it, and or since we are breaking the rhyme rule, perhaps keeping in mind the syllable count symmetry rule..... Just a thought, please feel completely free to disregard

That December day = 5
All that they had = 4
Old saddle and whip = 5
Riding away = 4

[jaymarsch]

I am enjoying this thread. So many choices to consider when writing a song.

Best,
Jayne

[KDepew]

Very cool thread. Thanks for asking this and sharing!

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn Bob

When he wandered the plains in days long ago
He created a legend that all would soon know
His mane was white and his tail was black
And he carried with him a young boy named Jack

A worn saddle and a whip
Was all that they had
riding off into the land
On that December day

bridge {can have rhyme, 3 lines}

cold air and hot breath
Riding hard outta Joliet

verse 1

When he wandered the plains in days long ago
He created a legend that all would soon know
His mane was white and his tail was black
And he carried with him a young boy named Jack


A worn saddle and a whip
Was all that they had
riding off into the land
On that December day

bridge {can have rhyme, 3 lines}

cold air and hot breath
Riding hard outta Joliet
ridin' away, away, away

chorus {no rhyme, 3 lines}

.................................................. .......

I'm going to suggest we forst finish the lyrics, and then we can work on a re write....

again I encourage anyone to participate

[Bob from Brooklyn]

I'm glad to see others are enjoying this thread. I am too.

--------------

When he wandered the plains in days long ago
He created a legend that all would soon know
His mane was white and his tail was black
And he carried with him a young boy named Jack


A worn saddle and a whip
Was all that they had
riding off into the land
On that December day

bridge {can have rhyme, 3 lines}

cold air and hot breath
Riding hard outta Joliet
ridin' away, away, away

chorus {no rhyme, 3 lines}

A horse called Nebraska from east Illinois