The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 04-09-2010, 12:09 PM
blues2rock blues2rock is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Yokosuka, Japan
Posts: 818
Default Did a real 1937 D28 have a tortoise shell pickguard?

If so, then does the D28 Authentic also have a tortoise shell pickguard?
__________________
---------------------------------
"If It Is To Be, It Is Up To Me..."
-William Johnson

---------------------------------

'09 Martin D35
'08 Taylor 816ce
'73 Yamaha FG700
'09 Chuck Gilbert Dread C/M
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-09-2010, 12:26 PM
walternewton walternewton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Austin TX
Posts: 1,060
Default

Don't know about a 1930's original but the new Authentics definitely do not have a real TS pickguard.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-09-2010, 12:34 PM
blues2rock blues2rock is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Yokosuka, Japan
Posts: 818
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by walternewton View Post
Don't know about a 1930's original but the new Authentics definitely do not have a real TS pickguard.
Then if the originals had real TS guards and the "new" authentics don't...I call that being a hypocrite--no matter how illegal real tortoise is now.
__________________
---------------------------------
"If It Is To Be, It Is Up To Me..."
-William Johnson

---------------------------------

'09 Martin D35
'08 Taylor 816ce
'73 Yamaha FG700
'09 Chuck Gilbert Dread C/M
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-09-2010, 12:43 PM
Bryan T Bryan T is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,442
Default

I don't think they did. http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Blog...37d28_1.html#3
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:07 PM
Jim Jim is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,541
Default

I don't know, but I would really doubt if they used real tortoise shell in the 1930s. Celluloid was in very common use in those days, and they made celluloid to much higher standards than they do today. Modern celluloid isn't even really celluloid in most cases, it is a substitute material that is not as nice as real celluloid and is much cheaper to make. Real celluloid today would be prohibitively expensive.
__________________
Member #12

Acoustics:
1995 Taylor 510
1997 Taylor Custom Shop 14 size
1998 Taylor K-65 12 string
1998 Larrivee C-10E with Mucha Lady IR/Sitka

Electrics:
1999 PRS Custom 22 Artist Package - Whale Blue/Ebony
1995 Fender Custom Shop 1960 Strat - Dakota/Maple
1997 Fender California Series Fat Strat - CAR/Maple
1968 Teisco e-110 Sunburst/Maple
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:14 PM
Andromeda Andromeda is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Under the Bodhi Tree
Posts: 13,445
Default

never mind...
__________________
“If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts, happiness follows them like a never-departing shadow.” ~ The Buddha
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:51 PM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,361
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blues2rock View Post
Then if the originals had real TS guards and the "new" authentics don't...I call that being a hypocrite--no matter how illegal real tortoise is now.
How is that being "hypocrite"?

The Martin Authentics come as close as possible to the pre-war models -- but I see no claims anywhere that it's the "exact" replica of a 1937 model.

Authentic, vintage reissue, golden era, etc. are all marketing terms that need to be taken with the right perspective.

If you think the "Authentic" sticker guarantees it's the exact replica, then you need to revisit your expectations.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-09-2010, 01:59 PM
HHP HHP is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 27,517
Default

Even more shocking is that they probably used power tools and measurement devices to build Authentics not available in the 1930's. The production facilities were air conditioned today and were not in the 30's. They may have even used computers in designing and building them.

I'm certainly not spending MY $5G's unless there are tool marks, measurement errors, and sweat from underpaid workers included in the deal along with an authentic pickguard.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-09-2010, 02:07 PM
Hambone Hambone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Blackstone Valley
Posts: 1,917
Default

This is a ridiculous thread, but I'll play anyway. Martin guitars didn't start using pickguards until 1929. They were celluloid not tortoise shell.

If you're looking for a reason to slag the Authentics you'll have to dig deeper than that.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-09-2010, 02:22 PM
Wade Hampton Wade Hampton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Chugiak, Alaska
Posts: 20,484
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blues2rock View Post
Then if the originals had real TS guards and the "new" authentics don't...I call that being a hypocrite--no matter how illegal real tortoise is now.
Accusations of hypocrisy aside, you ought to do your research a little more thoroughly before you start flinging that sort of language around.

For the record, to the best of my knowledge any and all "tortoiseshell" pickguards Martin has ever put on their guitars at the factory has been made of one form of plastic or another.

The originals would have been made of celluloid, which is a highly volatile material that sometimes spontaneously bursts into flames. (I'm not making this up.) It's a dangerous material to manufacture and to handle, since it's almost as explosive as black powder. As a result, celluloid is no longer manufactured in the United States, due to liability issues, and any celluloid that does get used for flatpicks or ping pong balls (the two remaining uses for it) is made offshore, not in North America.

As for the occasional antique Martins with genuine tortoiseshell pickguards, made from the shells of dead turtles, chances are that these were added by the owners of the instruments after they'd bought them.

I think I've seen maybe two old Martins with genuine tortoiseshell pickguards on them, and these were on smallbody old Martins and the pickguards looked much more like mandolin pickguards than the familiar "Martin teardrop" shape pickguard we're all accustomed to.

Anyway - the so-called "Golden Era" Martins made before WWII that are so sought after today had plastic appointments in several places: their pickguards, their body binding and their bridge pins.

If Martin uses a more stable modern plastic for these parts than the original celluloid, that simply reflects the fact that there's not much availability on the original celluloid, and that there are better and safer materials that can be used now.

That's not hypocrisy, that's simply common sense and good business practice.


Wade Hampton Miller
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-09-2010, 02:27 PM
blues2rock blues2rock is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Yokosuka, Japan
Posts: 818
Default

I apologize if using the word "hypocrite" has offended some of you guys. Note, however, that I'm not offended by one of the "air conditioning" remarks made

I guess it does seem like I'm trying to bash the Authentics, but I'm just trying to justify the price tag on the D28 "Authentic". I figure that by having the kind of a price, the guitar would be an exact replica...I mean, isn't that the point of that guitar anyway? Isn't that why they charge so much for it?

I mean, everything down to the glue used, bracing, neck block, etc. used are the same. The tuners, the b/s woods, etc. But why not the pickguard (assuming that it originally came with tortoise pickguard).

If it didn't originally come with tortoise pg, then forget about my question. That's really the only issue I'm trying to figure out.

I'm not bashing Martin or Authentics. I'm not about to buy an Authentic either...I'm just thinking out loud.
__________________
---------------------------------
"If It Is To Be, It Is Up To Me..."
-William Johnson

---------------------------------

'09 Martin D35
'08 Taylor 816ce
'73 Yamaha FG700
'09 Chuck Gilbert Dread C/M
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-09-2010, 02:32 PM
JoeCharter JoeCharter is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 8,361
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blues2rock View Post
I apologize if using the word "hypocrite" has offended some of you guys. Note, however, that I'm not offended by one of the "air conditioning" remarks made

I guess it does seem like I'm trying to bash the Authentics, but I'm just trying to justify the price tag on the D28 "Authentic". I figure that by having the kind of a price, the guitar would be an exact replica...I mean, isn't that the point of that guitar anyway? Isn't that why they charge so much for it?

I mean, everything down to the glue used, bracing, neck block, etc. used are the same. The tuners, the b/s woods, etc. But why not the pickguard (assuming that it originally came with tortoise pickguard).

If it didn't originally come with tortoise pg, then forget about my question. That's really the only issue I'm trying to figure out.

I'm not bashing Martin or Authentics. I'm not about to buy an Authentic either...I'm just thinking out loud.
I personally think all of those vintage reissues (and especially Fender's and Martin's) are very good marketing that probably generates a much higher margin than their standard series. I don't own a Martin Authentic simply because I can't afford it. Why are they so expensive? Because people are ready to buy them at that price, that's it.

It's your prerogative to think that the deal is a bad one because the pickguard is potentially different -- but keep in mind hypocrisy is a different concept altogether.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-09-2010, 02:40 PM
Tony Burns Tony Burns is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Western New York
Posts: 6,083
Default

I doubt they use Celluloid pickguards today -its considered an exsplosive material - some of the old pick's from the 60's - 70's were -- i remember a plastic's teacher lighing one of mine just to show us how exsplosive they were - it lite up in a flash !
__________________
wood things with strings on them !
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-09-2010, 02:43 PM
mcduffnw mcduffnw is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 820
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeNewbie View Post
I personally think all of those vintage reissues (and especially Fender's and Martin's) are very good marketing that probably generates a much higher margin than their standard series. I don't own a Martin Authentic simply because I can't afford it. Why are they so expensive? Because people are ready to buy them at that price, that's it.

It's your prerogative to think that the deal is a bad one because the pickguard is potentially different -- but keep in mind hypocrisy is a different concept altogether.
Hi Joe:
I suspect that there is also a lot more "human hand" labor involved in building the GE and Authentic series guitars, which drives up the price. For instance, on the Authentic series, the necks are all hand carved, whereas the lower model Martins have necks that are much more to mostly machine made. Perhaps they still manually bend the sides on the authentics as well. To be sure, the authentics are a much much more hand made Martin, like their original counterparts. I imagine that this is where a lot of the cost increase comes from.
If you are fortunate enough to own a Martin Authentic series guitar, you own a very very fine and very hand made instrument. It would be awesome to be able to afford owning one...at least it would be for me!

Very Best Regards
duff
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-09-2010, 02:50 PM
Hambone Hambone is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Blackstone Valley
Posts: 1,917
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeNewbie View Post
I personally think all of those vintage reissues (and especially Fender's and Martin's) are very good marketing that probably generates a much higher margin than their standard series. I don't own a Martin Authentic simply because I can't afford it. Why are they so expensive? Because people are ready to buy them at that price, that's it.

It's your prerogative to think that the deal is a bad one because the pickguard is potentially different -- but keep in mind hypocrisy is a different concept altogether.
At least in terms of the Martin D18 Authentic, there is much more hand crafting involved than standard production guitars. Among other steps, the sides are hand bent, the necks are hand carved, hide glue is used which is much more challenging to work with than titebond. The Authentics are assembled by a very few of Martins most talented and experienced workers. It is basically a custom shop instrument.

The guitar is very lightly built and does not have an adjustable truss rod. Part of the price involves a higher than standard model expectation for warranty repairs.

I have no problem with the higher margin for a very special guitar. Obviously, if there was no demand for the Authentic they wouldn't be selling at the price they command. However, the reason people are willing to pay the price is because they are the best Martins being built today.

You owe it to yourself to try one out. I thought my D18GE was the only mahogany dread I'd ever want, until I picked up my D18A. The GE is great, but the A is phenomenal.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > General Acoustic Guitar Discussion

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:37 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=