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  #31  
Old 08-22-2017, 04:08 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post
I think in the minds of the AGF that if you can hold your nose and use a UST, that there is something better about the Matrix, compared to the Element, for its impact on the acoustic tone of the guitar. I would contend both are made from polymer piezo materials and neither is hard like bone or Tusq or even Micarta, and how can they really be any different in this regard. Apparently Gibson and McPherson feel the same as I do. I'm am also slightly prejudiced towards the Matrix over the Element, but I've never had both installed in the same model guitar for a reasonable test. All that said all my guitars have (Mi-Si) Elements :~).

The Matrix is a custom build up of polymer piezo material in a thin rectangular form where one conductor is the base the piezo material is mounted on and the other is the shield that it is wrapped in. That thin shield material is fragile.

The Element is standard coax with likely the same piezo polymer insulator. In un-flattened form it is normally embedded in asphalt so that street lights can know if there is a car waiting and should change state. It is tough stuff. The outer shield/conductor is that good old braided wire that you find in all coaxial cables. Baggs' flattens a bit of it out for the UST part (as does most others). Highlander leaves it round and you have to shape the saddle bottom. I prefer the Element because it is bullet proof (as you might expect for something cars drive over). You can ignore that 45 degree drill instruction and they still work fine (I'm not recommending that). It is a very practical design!


Excellent information, as usual, John. I'm generally predisposed to use SBTs in lieu of USTs because of the interface between the saddle and the slot. That said, I suspect a lot of that prejudice is unfair. I also suspect that some of the reported acoustic degradation from the LR Baggs systems is related to the weight of the preamp components taped to the underside of the soundboard. So, you've solved that with the MiSi preamps. As we discussed in the other thread, I'll be testing MiSi and SBTs in three new guitars.

Regarding the Matrix UST, I would love to hear a controlled test of before and after the installation. The fragile shielding foil is certainly a good reason to opt for the very robust LR Baggs braided material.

So, did you notice a difference in acoustic performance after installing the USTs?

Cheers,

David
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  #32  
Old 08-23-2017, 05:48 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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Originally Posted by martingitdave View Post
So, did you notice a difference in acoustic performance after installing the USTs?

Cheers,

David
I didn't in any of the installs I've done. But I have a new RainSong PA-1100NSG and a Mi-Si Trio sitting here un-mated because it takes me a few days to get over that fear. I am as prone to hearing with my eyes as the next guy. A K&K install is not appropriate for CF IMO because removal with a razor blade is not practical (the CF is not smooth like a maple bridge plate).

I play the occasional music festival, county fair, etc. where there are floor monitors at high volumes (needed or not every act gets the same sound man), and SBTs just don't work without a sound hole cover which I don't like to use (I'd swear it degrades the plugged-in tone too, but again maybe I'm hearing with my eyes). I also had problems in the occasional room where I think one of the guitar's resonant peaks overlapped with something about the room's own resonances and endless EQ fiddling is not something I enjoy.

I am probably going to break down and buy a ToneDexter one of these days. I'm hoping I have the discipline to hold out for its next generation which I would hope adds reverb, compression, and a sub bass filter (or a way to add these to the Images as the digital signal processor on which it is based ought to be able to reproduce those things too -- well maybe a short reverb).
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  #33  
Old 08-23-2017, 06:46 AM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post
I didn't in any of the installs I've done. But I have a new RainSong PA-1100NSG and a Mi-Si Trio sitting here un-mated because it takes me a few days to get over that fear. I am as prone to hearing with my eyes as the next guy. A K&K install is not appropriate for CF IMO because removal with a razor blade is not practical (the CF is not smooth like a maple bridge plate).



I play the occasional music festival, county fair, etc. where there are floor monitors at high volumes (needed or not every act gets the same sound man), and SBTs just don't work without a sound hole cover which I don't like to use (I'd swear it degrades the plugged-in tone too, but again maybe I'm hearing with my eyes). I also had problems in the occasional room where I think one of the guitar's resonant peaks overlapped with something about the room's own resonances and endless EQ fiddling is not something I enjoy.



I am probably going to break down and buy a ToneDexter one of these days. I'm hoping I have the discipline to hold out for its next generation which I would hope adds reverb, compression, and a sub bass filter (or a way to add these to the Images as the digital signal processor on which it is based ought to be able to reproduce those things too -- well maybe a short reverb).

John, I guess I shouldn't be surprised to find people with similar experiences given we all perform with acoustic guitars. What you're describing is very familiar. I've had some bad experiences with SBTs at festivals with volunteer mixing desk operators. One can't realistically expect volunteers to have that sorted out.

Nor can I deny that the Fishman Aura/Matrix UST system that I am presently using is the best system I've found to date in terms of juggling amplified tone, features and feedback resistance.

Nonetheless, I continue to struggle with "hearing with my eyes" (wonderful expression) when it comes to adding USTs. If, I were able to get over that hump, I'd have a Fishman Matrix in every guitar and a Aura (or Tonedexter) pedal in hand. It just works. However, for me, I am either hearing a drop in bass resonance, or simply imagining it. The doubt then causes to me to do all manner of saddle adjustments and fitting, replacements and experiments. Hence, I damaged the shielding on the very system that works the best.

My plan is to replace the self-spoiled Matrix UST (assuming the shielding paint is insufficient), and leave my Aura system in the rotation for any/all situations where feedback and volume are a concern. Or, realistically, anytime I know I'm there to play amplified.

I plan to go with SBTs for the other three very resonant guitars in the rotation. Usually, for folk/roots music, I was able to get away with K&Ks. My 12 string already has a passive K&K installation and it's waiting for the custom MiSi preamp. I'm not so eager to glue K&Ks into these last two guitars that I've searched so long to find. So, I'm hopeful that the PUTW will be more, or less, the same in terms of feedback resistance.
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  #34  
Old 08-23-2017, 02:40 PM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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I just finished the Mi-Si Trio install into my RainSong CH-PA1100NSG. I find it a much quicker install than a K&K (I'm pretty slow going with CA glue). It sounds fine to me direct into my Yamaha DBR-10 with no EQ. I'm sure my ToneDEQ will step it up a bit.

As to before/after acoustic tone, I put it on a guitar hanger next to my dreadnought and stood in font of both of them strumming the open strings at the 12th fret. If there is a before/after difference, I'm not detecting it. However that was my expectation going into this experiment and your mileage may differ.

A lot of my guitar playing buddies are not flush with cash and don't own high end guitars or can barely afford one decent one. I've installed at least a dozen JJBs and K&Ks for them and it's hard to beat the simplicity, sound quality, and price (at least for the JJB combined with my free install) of a SBT. Unfortunately I've got plenty of money to satisfy my whims...
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  #35  
Old 08-23-2017, 03:39 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post
I just finished the Mi-Si Trio install into my RainSong CH-PA1100NSG. I find it a much quicker install than a K&K (I'm pretty slow going with CA glue). It sounds fine to me direct into my Yamaha DBR-10 with no EQ. I'm sure my ToneDEQ will step it up a bit.



As to before/after acoustic tone, I put it on a guitar hanger next to my dreadnought and stood in font of both of them strumming the open strings at the 12th fret. If there is a before/after difference, I'm not detecting it. However that was my expectation going into this experiment and your mileage may differ.



A lot of my guitar playing buddies are not flush with cash and don't own high end guitars or can barely afford one decent one. I've installed at least a dozen JJBs and K&Ks for them and it's hard to beat the simplicity, sound quality, and price (at least for the JJB combined with my free install) of a SBT. Unfortunately I've got plenty of money to satisfy my whims...


Good for you Jon! You were on the fence about it. Glad you electrified that gigging beast. Also glad to hear that you discerned no difference in acoustic tone.
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