moving nut further back

[ii Cybershot ii]

I have an Eastman E10OM that intonates just fine with a capo on any fret.

However it has poor intonation without a capo.

It appears as though the nut is cut too close to the first fret. All of the fretted notes play flat by several cents relative to the open string note.

I ended up buying a very similar guitar, an Eastman E6OM LTD, which does not have this issue, and the measurement difference between nut-to-first-fret is about 1/16", with the nut on the E10OM being 1/16" closer to the first fret.

So is it possible to move the nut back, towards the tuning pegs?

It seems odd because the headstock slopes and the nut of course rests on a flat shelf. Not sure how I'd deal with this issue...

Alternatively, could I simply remove 1/16" of material off of the fret-side face of the nut and just have a more narrow nut on the guitar?

Thanks.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

Alternatively, could I simply remove 1/16" of material off of the fret-side face of the nut and just have a more narrow nut on the guitar?

That's your solution, right there (almost).

While you are at it, make the nut fully compensated for each individual string.

[ii Cybershot ii]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

That's your solution, right there (almost).

While you are at it, make the nut fully compensated for each individual string.

Haha that sure would be great. What kind of mathematics would I need to perform such an operation?

[phavriluk]

Why not do the fixes one-after-the-other? Do the original intonation fix first, moving the 'zero' fret (nut) further away from the saddle, and then see where that's gotten you? Perhaps good results come from doing the one adjustment. At least OP would know what to undo if something goes sour.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

That's your solution, right there (almost).

While you are at it, make the nut fully compensated for each individual string.

No math required ...but you do require an accurate strobe tuner.. (Peterson app on your iPhone will be perfectly satisfactory) .

Make sure your frets are in good shape (no divots) , and that your nut slots are the right height (ie same level as the frets).

Tune all the strings so that they register correct when fretted at the third fret....ie G-C-F-Bb-D-G. The open strings will now intonate sharp at the nut.. So you remove material from the front face of the nut to bring the open strings into tune. A Dremel with a miniature grinding wheel is the best way to do this, if you know how to handle it.

That's the practical, effective method, which will work. You don't need to worry about the Ph.D. theses which appear sporadically about nut compensation ...what I have outlined will work perfectly.

[lowrider]

Yes, any qualified luthier can make you a nut with a 1/16 notch across the front, or you could take a flat file, lay something like a thin metal ruler on the fretboard and file it yourself. But, are you sure that's where the 1/16 problem is? When you measure nut to first fret do you get a 1/16 difference?

[Frank Ford]

So is it possible to move the nut back, towards the tuning pegs?
It seems odd because the headstock slopes and the nut of course rests on a flat shelf. Not sure how I'd deal with this issue...

Of course you can move the nut back toward the tuners. It will require a bit of shimming underneath and in front, but it's certainly do-able. And you could make the nut thinner from the tuner side to make the job easier.

Alternatively, could I simply remove 1/16" of material off of the fret-side face of the nut and just have a more narrow nut on the guitar?

Oops, that would not change the effective position of the nut. . .

[ii Cybershot ii]

Originally Posted by phavriluk

Why not do the fixes one-after-the-other? Do the original intonation fix first, moving the 'zero' fret (nut) further away from the saddle, and then see where that's gotten you? Perhaps good results come from doing the one adjustment. At least OP would know what to undo if something goes sour.

Your words are wise so thank you for reminding me! One thing at a time! In fact when I bought the Eastman, it had a fully compensated saddle which caused a lot of intonation issues on its own. Combined with this nut issue (unknown at the time) I had a hell of a time playing the guitar. I had to go step by step to get to the source of it all.

Originally Posted by murrmac123

No math required ...but you do require an accurate strobe tuner.. (Peterson app on your iPhone will be perfectly satisfactory) .

Make sure your frets are in good shape (no divots) , and that your nut slots are the right height (ie same level as the frets).

Tune all the strings so that they register correct when fretted at the third fret....ie G-C-F-Bb-D-G. The open strings will now intonate sharp at the nut.. So you remove material from the front face of the nut to bring the open strings into tune. A Dremel with a miniature grinding wheel is the best way to do this, if you know how to handle it.

That's the practical, effective method, which will work. You don't need to worry about the Ph.D. theses which appear sporadically about nut compensation ...what I have outlined will work perfectly.

Thanks for this info, extremely helpful!

Question, is there a specific reason for using the 3rd fret as opposed to any other fret, like say the 1st fret?

Originally Posted by lowrider

Yes, any qualified luthier can make you a nut with a 1/16 notch across the front, or you could take a flat file, lay something like a thin metal ruler on the fretboard and file it yourself. But, are you sure that's where the 1/16 problem is? When you measure nut to first fret do you get a 1/16 difference?

This seems rather simple, which I like!

I got the 1/16" difference by comparing two similar guitars, one with the issue and one without. There appears to be a better way to determine the actual amount to remove, which would be exactly how the poster above described. Using an accurate tuner and remove bit by bit until the intonation is correct.

Originally Posted by Frank Ford

Of course you can move the nut back toward the tuners. It will require a bit of shimming underneath and in front, but it's certainly do-able. And you could make the nut thinner from the tuner side to make the job easier.


Oops, that would not change the effective position of the nut. . .

Thanks Frank! And if all goes wrong with my endeavor I may need a new nut cut by a pro... in which case I'm 20 minutes away from you guys

[AcornHouse]

Have you checked the nut slot depths. I'm wondering if maybe the slots are too high, and the extra string stretch is causing the issues.

[Oldguy64]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

Your words are wise so thank you for reminding me! One thing at a time! In fact when I bought the Eastman, it had a fully compensated saddle which caused a lot of intonation issues on its own. Combined with this nut issue (unknown at the time) I had a hell of a time playing the guitar. I had to go step by step to get to the source of it all.



Thanks for this info, extremely helpful!

Question, is there a specific reason for using the 3rd fret as opposed to any other fret, like say the 1st fret?




This seems rather simple, which I like!

I got the 1/16" difference by comparing two similar guitars, one with the issue and one without. There appears to be a better way to determine the actual amount to remove, which would be exactly how the poster above described. Using an accurate tuner and remove bit by bit until the intonation is correct.



Thanks Frank! And if all goes wrong with my endeavor I may need a new nut cut by a pro... in which case I'm 20 minutes away from you guys

Being 20 minutes away from professional help...might lead me to get professional help.
Yes it will cost, but the time savings of not having to do, re-do, and replace...seems worth it to me.

[Howard Klepper]

How do the fretted notes at the first fret compare with their octaves at the 13th?

In other words, how do you know your problem is not at the saddle?

[dekutree64]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

How do the fretted notes at the first fret compare with their octaves at the 13th?

In other words, how do you know your problem is not at the saddle?

Yep, this is the way to do nut compensation. Ignore the open strings and adjust the saddle until all fretted notes play in tune. Then check how sharp the open notes are and file the nut back accordingly for each string. You should end up with two ramps like the saddle, with the low E and B being closest to the 1st fret, and high E and G farthest from the 1st fret.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by ii Cybershot ii

...the measurement difference between nut-to-first-fret is about 1/16"...

If it really is misplaced by about 1/16", the intonation would be terrible.

Are you certain that the two guitars you are comparing are the same scale length?

[redir]

I'm trying to wrap my head around something here. IF indeed your nut is off then that means your string lengths are too short. So lets look at the open A-String. You tune that string up to a perfect A then you put a capo on the 2nd fret. Once that capo is on then now that A-String is indeed the proper length but since the string was tuned to A at the wrong scale length then me thinks that you should still have tuning problems.

[charles Tauber]

The "scale length" is the theoretical vibrating string length. It is used to calculate the placement of the frets. It does not change if you move the nut or saddle.

If the nut is moved closer to the first fret than it should be, then the open string tuned to pitch, fretting a note at the first fret will result in the vibrating portion of the string - from first fret to saddle - being longer than necessary to produce the desired pitch. The result is that the fretted note will sound flat. (The position of the fret does not shorten the vibrating portion of the string by enough to reach the desired difference (ratio) between the pitch of the open string and a note a semi-tone higher in pitch.)

If you measure and graph the amount of error in pitch produced at each fret you can draw a best-fit line through the points. The point at which the line crosses the Y axis can be moved up or down - closer to or further from zero - by adjusting the position of the nut. The slope of the line is adjusted by altering the position of the saddle.