Installed a Fishman Matrix Infinity and I hate it -- now what?

[6L6]

Save yourself further disappointment and put in a K&K Pure Mini. There's a very good reason why they are such a popular pickup!

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by ChapinFan

Well, that certainly sounds encouraging! If you can get an Ovation to sound just like a Guild... maybe I can get my Guild to sound just like a Guild!

I just had to comment on this. IMO and others might disagree, but the Aura isn't going to make an OM sound like a dread or a Martin sound like a Taylor. It's true that an OM image might just work on a dread but it's not as if you are going to completely alter the sound of your guitar. I have no doubt that the Ovation sounds better with the Guild image but that's most likely because the piezo quack and unnatural characteristics have been limited. I highly doubt anyone would mistake the Ovation for a Guild plugged in.

I think the aura technology is incredible but I have come to the conclusion that unless you have an exact image of your guitar, it's never going to sound its best. The best aura samples I have heard were from Martin guitars that had exact images of that guitar installed. That's not to say you won't have good luck (I used random images with my Taylor for years), I just wouldn't expect a miracle cure.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I just had to comment on this. IMO and others might disagree, but the Aura isn't going to make an OM sound like a dread or a Martin sound like a Taylor. It's true that an OM image might just work on a dread but it's not as if you are going to completely alter the sound of your guitar. I have no doubt that the Ovation sounds better with the Guild image but that's most likely because the piezo quack and unnatural characteristics have been limited. I highly doubt anyone would mistake the Ovation for a Guild plugged in.

I think the aura technology is incredible but I have come to the conclusion that unless you have an exact image of your guitar, it's never going to sound its best. The best aura samples I have heard were from Martin guitars that had exact images of that guitar installed. That's not to say you won't have good luck (I used random images with my Taylor for years), I just wouldn't expect a miracle cure.

You're correct. The Aura imaging is not modeling. Modeling is a two step process where a source signal (e.g. dreadnought) is translated into a neutral signal before being translated into a new target signal (e.g. OM). There are a few of those devices on the market. And, they work with some success. The Aura is designed around the Matrix which provides a stable predictable signal from each guitar. And, buy applying the target image, you can restore the signal to something that resembles a mic'ed guitar.

[NoodleFingers]

Originally Posted by Christopher Cozad

Another option worth noting is the ToneDexter by Audio Sprockets. Assuming your Matrix is installed correctly and is not damaged in any way, you plug your pickup into the ToneDexter along with a microphone and create your own images or WaveMaps, as Audio Sprockets calls them. Yes, this requires the purchase of an additional piece of outboard gear and yes, you will need to carry it with you wherever you wish to perform. But your amplified guitar will sound closer to your guitar than it ever has, only louder.

Seriously, this. The ToneDexter is basically an Aura system you can train to your very own guitar with any microphone you like. It works great with USTs (like your Fishman), and if you decide later to change to something like a K&K Pure Mini, it works great with those, too.

And you don't need to take my word for it. Go to the Audio Sprockets site and listen to the videos. Read the threads here about it. It's new, and it's a game-changer.

[jonfields45]

Before you spend any money, take it to a guitar store and have their tech or most technical guitar salesman, put it through its paces with one of their amps. A Matrix stand alone should sound pretty good. If yours doesn't sound right to those independent ears, bring it back to the guy who installed it for a check. If it sounds OK then go ToneDexter or Aura. I've found anything less than an Aura (and there are a lot of them) not really all that useful (one man's opinion).

I'm a retired EE and lifetime electronics tinkerer. I've probably installed something approaching 50 PUPs in my guitars and friend's guitars. I consider my work very good and I take my time. That said, I made a freshman error in my last install and did not notice until I took the guitar to a gig (when tying down the Element UST inside the guitar I pulled it slightly into the guitar and left the high e sounding weak -- the Element is active over its entire length which means you can't leave it flopping around and in-theory improves the UST tone with some inside the box "air"). So give that tech another go if the guitar store trip confirms it is not up to snuff. Things do go wrong.

[Oldguy64]

Originally Posted by ChapinFan

Hey all -- longtime reader. Lots of good advice on here, thanks everyone who contributes!

Recently, I had a Fishman Matrix Infinity installed in my Guild DG40C (1980 Guild Flat-top Cutaway)... and I pretty much hate it. (It was professionally installed -- though I have no idea what that means. I went to a guitar store in the area [Not GC] and had their guy do it. He was the one who talked me into the Fishman, telling me Martin is sending it out with all of their AEs these days. I had gone in there wanting the Anthem...)

Bass strings sound fine, but the B,E (especially) sound -- IDK how to describe it -- brittle I guess. A kazoo-like sound that is all I seem to hear whenever I strum or even finger pick hard. Also it seems hyper sensitive. When I fret a chord I can hear the click of the string on the fret.

I've tried everything to fix it post guitar, and nothing gives me what I really want. (Which is just my GUILD sound.) If I wanted my Guild to sound like an electric, I'd just get an electric.

I got the new MESA Boogie Rosette -- figuring, well that thing has every adjustment under the sun. Surely I can fix this through that... no dice. I am not a sound guy. Maybe a good one could have done it, but all of my fiddling and twiddling just produced variations of the Kazoo. So, that went back.

I got a BOSS VE8 -- that has a "We fix the sound of your Guitar" knob, and that sounds like what I wanted. But, nope. Same thing. It simply muddied the problem or amplified it -- take your pick -- but the kazoo was still singing brightly as ever.

I played a church outdoor set this past Saturday, and a guy in the church tells me he has a Fishman Amp made for this and I can fix it through that. We plugged in, and I played, and he adjusted, and it seemed like I had a cleaner sound -- at least coming from my monitor. So, cool. Except when we go to play, there is this hiss in our sound all of the sudden, and the sound guy traces it back to the Fishman amp, and so that gets nixed and I plug in to a direct box -- and guess what was all I heard through the whole set? Yeah, the high Kazoo mocking me the whole time.

So, what I want to know is, you guys who have the Fishman -- do you honestly like the sound? Or are you EQ'ing like mad every time you use it to get the sound you want?

Is there something I can do to fix what I have? Maybe add an internal mic or something? Or do I need to bite the bullet and have this replaced with something else?

TIA!

I had a similar problem on my AJ60S.
My luthier simply filed a shallow notch in the bridge under the b string.
You migh also flip the bass boost switch to the opposite position.
These things made me enjoy playing that guitar plugged in.

[eyesore]

another one here for "not a fan". i had that Matrix system installed in two guitars .... i hate too!!!

[ChapinFan]

Appreciate all of the input. I am going to start working through this one step at a time.

I did find a great deal on the Aura pedal, so I'm going to let that play out and see how it is. My main thing at this point is to get the quacking/kazoo thing to stop. Played it again in church today. Man, that sound is all I can hear.

If the Aura fixes it, and even if the Aura makes it sound close to the original sound (or the sound I hear when it's just me and the Guild in my living room) my search is over. I'm really not that much of an audiophile -- which is what makes this all so frustrating. I have an old sound-hole pickup that I bought 30 years ago called a silencer. That thing sounds better than the Matrix does. So it is possible there is something off with the install.

I don't need it to sound just like a Martin, or a 12 String Guild. I just need it to sound like a 6-String Guild Acoustic. But I am taking notes of all of the suggestions! Keep them coming!

[wrightj]

+1 for the Aura Spectrum to solve the quack issue. My Taylor 614 has the older Fishman barn door system, which is basically the Matrix with extras. I too play in church, and the quack was so bad and distracting I considered selling the guitar. I tried the Aura Spectrum based on comments in this forum, and problem solved. Didn't worry about matching the image - just spun the dials until I found a good sound. Turn up the Blend dial just enough to cut the quack, about 10 - 11 o'clock. Just make sure your Matrix is installed with even saddle contact. Good luck and keep playing!

[Side Man]

Originally Posted by 6L6

Save yourself further disappointment and put in a K&K Pure Mini. There's a very good reason why they are such a popular pickup!

"Winner, winner. Chicken dinner"...

[Hurricane Ramon]

Excerpt :

Originally Posted by ChapinFan

Hey all -- longtime reader. Lots of good advice on here, thanks everyone who contributes!

Recently, I had a Fishman Matrix Infinity installed in my Guild DG40C (1980 Guild Flat-top Cutaway)... and I pretty much hate it. (It was professionally installed -- though I have no idea what that means. I went to a guitar store in the area [Not GC] and had their guy do it. He was the one who talked me into the Fishman, telling me Martin is sending it out with all of their AEs these days. I had gone in there wanting the Anthem...)

Bass strings sound fine, but the B,E (especially) sound -- IDK how to describe it -- brittle I guess. A kazoo-like sound that is all I seem to hear whenever I strum or even finger pick hard. Also it seems hyper sensitive. When I fret a chord I can hear the click of the string on the fret.

I've tried everything to fix it post guitar, and nothing gives me what I really want. (Which is just my GUILD sound.) If I wanted my Guild to sound like an electric, I'd just get an electric.

TIA!

¿EQ - What do you use to begin with on it before your friend hooked you into the Fishman amp ?

Piezos can sound different in different amps true . Amping an acoustic has always been fraught with
pitfalls and incongruities up the wazzu .

My Washburn D46SCE's Eqi-Plus is a decent pre amp/EQ on that dreadnought and the cheapie
on my acoustic nylon Lucero is good too , but , mic'ing a acoustic guitar is probably unbeatable
as I have been told and learned .

I'm using the BodyRez on my T.C. Helicon Voice Live 3 X and it seems to make acoustic piezos
sound better than other amps with limited EQ control .

I have tried a few pedals , those expensive $300.00 to $600.00 acoustic stomp pedals are good
no doubt , but for the money they are way out of control price wise to my wallet bang for the
buck pre requisite .

I've a Samson C01 & a Shure SM57 to record my resonator and other acoustic instruments .
With FX added to this set up it is really cool . To try to do this live is another story but doable ,
you need feed back suppressors and the like added to the chain of equipment .

My portable Mackie FreePlay P.A. has feed back suppression as my T.C. Helicon does and I have
a two channel Behringer feed back suppressor/EQ . These things help you when your live with an
acoustic instrument , in fact they are essentials to the solution you are seeking .

:Good luck man .

EZ :

HR

[ChapinFan]

First off thanks again to everyone who gave advice and opinions.

I found a Fishman Aura Spectrum DI for half-price (used) on the GC web page. It came and I am loving it. No packaging, no cables, no manual. Luckily, packaging gets thrown away, I'm a tech geek so I have cables and AC power galore, and the internet is the world's best manual anyway.

The quack-quack is gone gone.

Of course, now I have all of these images to play around with. I am finding that the images that are supposed to be exactly my guitar don't sound like it (to my ear) -- but with all of the variety to choose from, I have several that sound clean and pure.

I have some Aura questions, but I'll put that in a separate thread.

Some parting thoughts (Things I think I think):

• No post effect will fix the "quack" of the pickup. Delay, Reverb, Chorus -- they all make it worse, not better. I guess a distort pedal would do the trick. But if you want the acoustic sound, you can't "fix it in post."
  
• I find EQ works great as a fine tune adjustment. Not so good when the base sound has a severe problem. Maybe I'm just not good at it, but I couldn't find one EQ -- including plugins I tried in a DAW -- that really fixed the quack. I could adjust the wave to the point I couldn't hear the quack but the result was a dull sounding B and E string -- which is just not cool.
  
• It would have been cheaper and easier to buy an electric guitar than to convert an Acoustic to amplified. I just throw that out there for anyone who has, say a Yamaha FG they got as a gift and who is thinking about saving money by getting a pickup for it. (Not trashing Yamaha guitars here! Just saying if your acoustic investment is $300, you are better off not spending $500 on gear to amplify it.) Decent AE Guitars can be had for less than $500.
  
• The ToneDexter was another interesting choice. The reason, in the end, that I ended up with the Aura DI is 1) Cost and 2) I don't have a good way of recording my guitar. Watching the videos for the ToneDexter, I was thinking to get it right I would need an acoustic room and a killer mic -- neither of which I have. I might try that some day. But for now, I have a couple of images on my Aura that makes my Guild sound like I think it should sound, and I am very happy with this!

Thanks again everyone!

[James May]

Originally Posted by ChapinFan

...
[*]The ToneDexter was another interesting choice. The reason, in the end, that I ended up with the Aura DI is 1) Cost and 2) I don't have a good way of recording my guitar. Watching the videos for the ToneDexter, I was thinking to get it right I would need an acoustic room and a killer mic -- neither of which I have. I might try that some day. But for now, I have a couple of images on my Aura that makes my Guild sound like I think it should sound, and I am very happy with this![/LIST]
Thanks again everyone!

I want to address the point you make about ToneDexter, since it is an understandably misconception that we are trying to dispel. You don't need a killer mic or a good room. We have routinely trained up with modest mics ($150) on trade show floors with very loud ambient noise, and gotten excellent results.

We are overdue for a new video that shows exactly the minimum you need to do train and get great results. We'll have something up soon.

In the meantime, glad you have something that is working for you.

[ChapinFan]

Originally Posted by James May

I want to address the point you make about ToneDexter, since it is an understandably misconception that we are trying to dispel. You don't need a killer mic or a good room. We have routinely trained up with modest mics ($150) on trade show floors with very loud ambient noise, and gotten excellent results.

We are overdue for a new video that shows exactly the minimum you need to do train and get great results. We'll have something up soon.

In the meantime, glad you have something that is working for you.

Hey James, thanks for jumping in. I didn't mean to spread mis-information... I have never seen it done in a noisy room with a bad mike. (And I can even get a quiet room, just not acoustically pure...) I do think a video showing it in minimum conditions is a great idea. If money were no object, I probably would have gotten both and compared the result before deciding.

I do like the sound I am getting -- but much of that is relief the quack is gone. It doesn't sound exactly like "My GUILD but louder" which was the original goal. My goal changed when I was having all of the problems finding a sound that was "An amplified version of my GUILD's sound that doesn't make me grind my teeth."

[pieterh]

Originally Posted by ChapinFan

First off thanks again to everyone who gave advice and opinions.

I found a Fishman Aura Spectrum DI for half-price (used) on the GC web page. It came and I am loving it. No packaging, no cables, no manual. Luckily, packaging gets thrown away, I'm a tech geek so I have cables and AC power galore, and the internet is the world's best manual anyway.

The quack-quack is gone gone.

Of course, now I have all of these images to play around with. I am finding that the images that are supposed to be exactly my guitar don't sound like it (to my ear) -- but with all of the variety to choose from, I have several that sound clean and pure.

I have some Aura questions, but I'll put that in a separate thread.

Some parting thoughts (Things I think I think):

• No post effect will fix the "quack" of the pickup. Delay, Reverb, Chorus -- they all make it worse, not better. I guess a distort pedal would do the trick. But if you want the acoustic sound, you can't "fix it in post."
  
• I find EQ works great as a fine tune adjustment. Not so good when the base sound has a severe problem. Maybe I'm just not good at it, but I couldn't find one EQ -- including plugins I tried in a DAW -- that really fixed the quack. I could adjust the wave to the point I couldn't hear the quack but the result was a dull sounding B and E string -- which is just not cool.
  
• It would have been cheaper and easier to buy an electric guitar than to convert an Acoustic to amplified. I just throw that out there for anyone who has, say a Yamaha FG they got as a gift and who is thinking about saving money by getting a pickup for it. (Not trashing Yamaha guitars here! Just saying if your acoustic investment is $300, you are better off not spending $500 on gear to amplify it.) Decent AE Guitars can be had for less than $500.
  
• The ToneDexter was another interesting choice. The reason, in the end, that I ended up with the Aura DI is 1) Cost and 2) I don't have a good way of recording my guitar. Watching the videos for the ToneDexter, I was thinking to get it right I would need an acoustic room and a killer mic -- neither of which I have. I might try that some day. But for now, I have a couple of images on my Aura that makes my Guild sound like I think it should sound, and I am very happy with this!

Thanks again everyone!

Good to see the Aura is working out for you, I've been tempted but two of my guitars have K&K Pure Minis and the third is a Taylor with the latest ES2.

Regarding quack, as I understand things, it is as a result of the piezo-electric effect where the resulting signal is not linearly proportional to the vibrations due to the element being under pressure (pushed down by the saddle). The Pure Mini (which sits inside the guitar on the bridge plate) and the ES (where the pickup elements press up against the side of the saddle, not squashed underneath) have much less if any quack. So, although delay, reverb and chorus etc won't tame the quack it may be worth trying a gentle compressor to even out those peaks!