Hand built/custom made guitars. What are you buying?

[RP]

Originally Posted by RP

Just a hunch but the word "better" might be the crux of Barry's question...

Originally Posted by TBman

I'd be afraid of ordering a guitar and end up getting a guitar that I paid $2,500 for and it sounds no better than a $1,200 guitar that I have. This is why I'm asking, what are you buying? Does it cost more because only a few guys in a shop are building it and the cost of running the shop raises the price due to the lower volume sold so therefore the higher price? (economy of scale) On the other hand, are you getting a $3,500 equivalent of a mass produced guitar for $2,500 because the few guys that build it actually spend more time time looking at an individual guitar and can spend more time on the details of each individual guitar?

What makes one guitar sound better than another? Is it the builder or the woods, top thickness, bracing...

What makes a guitar better than another (build wise) - good solid joints glued correctly. The correct neck angle. The attention to the aesthetics, bindings, rosettes.

!!

Darn, I'm good....

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by fatt-dad

the word is, "Cache!"

In guitars, I don't quite get the custom market and remain very happy with my Taylor 914, Martin OM-28A and my '30 L1 Gibson.

f-d

That is cool. What you don't know can't hurt (your wallet).

[Ergoetal]

You could walk into a store and buy a $1500 Martin that would sound wonderful, and your $5000 custom guitar would sound no better. The problem is that that Martin would be a very special guitar - maybe one in a thousand that Martin made that year, and you were lucky to hit the best one.

With the custom guitar, you have a better chance of getting a great guitar. Probably a much better chance.

I've got an old Guild that I paid $200 for, and it beats my $5000 custom guitar every day of the week. But if I were looking for another guitar (and I had the money), I'd probably go with a custom.

If you want great sound, just play everything you can get your hands on, old and new. You'll find one.

[Hasbro]

how many folks on this thread are considering a custom guitar as something very different from a traditional clone?

what are examples of factory made guitars with modern overtones, fan frets, natural reverb and insane sustain? don't think of the iconic woody sound (which we all love too), but think grand piano?

[iim7V7IM7]

Factories build to dimension and luthiers adjust dimensions based on stiffness, density, tap, flex etc.. I believe that this contributes to the hit or miss ratio of factory guitars and conversely improves the odds of success with luthier made guitars.

Factories grade wood on aesthetic attributes and luthiers grade wood on aesthetic properties and other physical properties that they assess. I believe that this contributes to the hit or miss ratio of factory guitars and conversely improves the odds of success with luthier made guitars.

High quality wood has become scarce, factories work through inventories faster and luthiers have wood lockers of seasoned woods sometimes decades old. I believe this contributes to why you see higher quality sets in luthier made guitars. Many of the sets used to make luthier guitars are decades old.

Almost everything is customizable on a luthier guitar to meet your playing needs. All this said, there are some fantastic factory made guitars, the odds of finding them are lower than a luthier made one in my experience.

Caveat: you need to choose your luthier wisely. Today there are more luthiers than ever. With the internet, it is difficult for the average customer to distinguish between them. This contributes to the variability of people's experiences.

[00-28]

Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7

Factories build to dimension and luthiers adjust dimensions based on stiffness, density, tap, flex etc.. I believe that this contributes to the hit or miss ratio of factory guitars and conversely improves the odds of success with luthier made guitars.

Factories grade wood on aesthetic attributes and luthiers grade wood on aesthetic properties and other physical properties that they assess. I believe that this contributes to the hit or miss ratio of factory guitars and conversely improves the odds of success with luthier made guitars.

High quality wood has become scarce, factories work through inventories faster and luthiers have wood lockers of seasoned woods sometimes decades old. I believe this contributes to why you see higher quality sets in luthier made guitars. Many of the sets used to make luthier guitars are decades old.

Almost everything is customizable on a luthier guitar to meet your playing needs. All this said, there are some fantastic factory made guitars, the odds of finding them are lower than a luthier made one in my experience.

Caveat: you need to choose your luthier wisely. Today there are more luthiers than ever. With the internet, it is difficult for the average customer to distinguish between them. This contributes to the variability of people's experiences.

Your caveat suggests finding a good Luthier is a crapshoot, so Luthier made guitars can have just as many variables as a factory made guitar. One variable you didn't mention, you can play a factory made guitar before you buy it, not so with having a Luthier made custom.

..........Mike

[s2y]

Custom guitars are dangerous. I live dangerously.

[Basalt Beach]

Originally Posted by Haasome

I do not think I'm on the same page with you here Barry. The way I see it -- if you'd like a Martin, Gibson or Taylor, there's only one place to get one, from Martin, Gibson or Taylor. If you'd like an Olson, Froggy or Hatcher, there's only one place to get these. You buy them from Olson, Froggy or Hatcher. You normally only spend money on something you consider has value equal to the purchase. I doubt there are many on AGF who spend this much money for a custom build because they like a name.

Agreed...

Barry,

I do not agree with the premise of your question. From my perspective, there is no comparison. If I find an off the shelf guitar that my ears and hands fall in love with, I buy it, whether it is a Martin, Taylor, Gibson, Bourgeois, Collings or SC. If I commission a guitar, it is because I know the luthier, he knows me, and we both have an understanding of the tone which I am seeking which I was not able to find find in a Gibson, Martin, or Taylor. My Northwood deep body OOO (mahogany/redwood) was a collaboration with John at Northwood and John at Shoreline from the desired tone, short scale OOO, 1 3/4 width 2/5/16 spacing, neck shape profile and lastly to the total appearance of the guitar

As Haasome said "You normally only spend money on something you consider has value equal to the purchase. I doubt there are many on AGF who spend this much money for a custom build because they like a name."

I spent money on my custom Northwood because it had value to me which I could not find in an existing built guitar from Gibson, Martin or Taylor.

Lastly, I do hope you recovering and you are feeling better!....

[Malcolm Kindnes]

Originally Posted by fishstick_kitty

Yep...judging by your username, I'm gonna guess you like Santa Cruz. Richard Hoover said guitar factories can build 2 guitars exactly to the same dimensions...but they won't sound the same...so there is more tonal variation from one guitar to the next. A luthier can build 2 guitars that can achieve the same (or similar) tone by manipulating the top thickness and braces etc...so you get more tonal consistency.

I don't think this is correct, it seems to me that if you build 1000 guitars your consistency will be much higher than if you build 50.
I live in Ireland where we have several well regarded small shop builders and a few individual luthiers, so over the years I have played quite a number of these guitars and owned a few as well. I would say there is about the same level of consistency in Lowdens as there is in the higher end Martins.
Recently an individual luthier that I know delivered four guitars to a shop and I tried them all out, I thought one was excellent and the others were OK. Now what does this tell us? It tells me that once you start building an instrument out of wood you never quite know exactly how it will sound until you string it up and play it for a while. And don't even mention consistency in hand carved necks!
I have bought "hand made just for me instruments", because I like certain features that are hard to find in factory instruments, especially in Ireland, but if you go down this road you will take a big loss on resale.

[Neonzapper]

Originally Posted by TBman

What makes one guitar sound better than another? Is it the builder or the woods, top thickness, bracing...

What makes a guitar better than another (build wise) - good solid joints glued correctly. The correct neck angle. The attention to the aesthetics, bindings, rosettes.

!!

Yes, the top has to vibrate like a drum head and cleanly translate deep low, vibrant middle, and extreme high notes loudly all at once for a long time before dying.

[Malcolm Kindnes]

Originally Posted by Ergoetal

With the custom guitar, you have a better chance of getting a great guitar. Probably a much better chance.

I don't think this is correct, I know it is a popular belief but I just don't think it's true.

[ManyMartinMan]

Originally Posted by Malcolm Kindnes

..I have bought "hand made just for me instruments", because I like certain features that are hard to find in factory instruments, especially in Ireland, but if you go down this road you will take a big loss on resale.

Agreed. And, as you have stated, once you commission that build you can't know exactly what the guitar will sound like until it is delivered.

[Malcolm Kindnes]

Originally Posted by ManyMartinMan

Agreed. And, as you have stated, once you commission that build you can't know exactly what the guitar will sound like until it is delivered.

Indeed, and once you take delivery you have to convince yourself you love it because you can't afford to take the loss on resale. Believe me, I've been there, done that and bought the T shirt.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Basalt Beach

Agreed...

Barry,

I do not agree with the premise of your question. From my perspective, there is no comparison. If I find an off the shelf guitar that my ears and hands fall in love with, I buy it, whether it is a Martin, Taylor, Gibson, Bourgeois, Collings or SC. If I commission a guitar, it is because I know the luthier, he knows me, and we both have an understanding of the tone which I am seeking which I was not able to find find in a Gibson, Martin, or Taylor. My Northwood deep body OOO (mahogany/redwood) was a collaboration with John at Northwood and John at Shoreline from the desired tone, short scale OOO, 1 3/4 width 2/5/16 spacing, neck shape profile and lastly to the total appearance of the guitar

As Haasome said "You normally only spend money on something you consider has value equal to the purchase. I doubt there are many on AGF who spend this much money for a custom build because they like a name."

I spent money on my custom Northwood because it had value to me which I could not find in an existing built guitar from Gibson, Martin or Taylor.

Lastly, I do hope you recovering and you are feeling better!....

Thank you, I'm doing better and actually just got done mowing the back yard. We had an acquaintance who is also a landscaper cut the front yard for us while I got stronger. Cutting the lawn has always been my time (aside from guitar). It relaxes me and sets my mind up for a good week ahead.

Accept for the occasional dizziness (neurologist appt next week), I'm fine now, but I'll never play the accordion again,

The whole trick to the custom route is knowing the luthier and knowing what you are getting. There's probably a lot of little things a luthier can do - taking extra special time to tune the top more, a little more care and time on the general build and details, that you won't get with a mass produced guitar because maybe some details just aren't cost effective. I don't know. Maybe I have my head up in a bad place, lol. It can't be a leap of faith though, that doesn't work with a lot of us. If you have a lot of discretionary income and $6 to $8 thousand is a drop in the bucket, as you get 10 times that in tax exempt interest/dividends a year, then go for it.

Also, a lot of us (me for instance) sometimes don't know what we want, until we hear it.

The funny thing is, regardless of the price of my guitars as they range from $99 to $2,300, once I start playing my focus goes 100% to the proper execution of the music in which of course I fall short 98% of the time,

[fatt-dad]

we are a picky lot! I get that!

I also get that some of us have friends that build instruments. In that regard, whether better or not, having a buddy build you a guitar is cool.

Regarding, whether you like the ultimate result? I say, "Learn to adapt!" Some expectations during a build can get out of scale. Builders may never build to your ultimate expectation. So, there can result, "Buyer's remorse." Push through that! Train your ear to learn the instrument. It's better that way!

f-d