Not acoustic enough

[playme]

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I really do appreciate it!

By the way I have been reading here for a very long time so am not new to the forum. Just not much of a poster.

So if I am understanding correctly:

1. Anthem is a good pickup and can be a great starting point maybe coupled with an external mic. or consider an external mic exclusively depending on my performance style

2. An excellent pre-amp is very important (so signal from pickup to pre-amp then into PA system? Or do I need a small mixer prior to the PA? Are their software's that can be used instead of a physical mixing board?)

3. Use a PA system instead of guitar amp (can include vocals this way)

4. Buy the best you can afford with any of these pieces of equipment

Again thanks to all of you!

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by playme

So if I am understanding correctly:

2. An excellent pre-amp is very important (so signal from pickup to pre-amp then into PA system? Or do I need a small mixer prior to the PA? Are their software's that can be used instead of a physical mixing board?)

3. Use a PA system instead of guitar amp (can include vocals this way)

I can really only address 2 of your points since I'm unfamiliar with the Baggs Anthem or the Ultrasound. A preamp is a must for single or dual source pickups in my opinion because it will give you some control over your tone, feedback, volume (if your source lacks an onboard control), etc. They also do wonders for warming up pickup tones. I have my ideas of which ones are the best sounding but I try to refrain from suggesting those because we all have different ideas of great tone.

A preamp is not necessary before an acoustic amp since amps already have them built in but are important going into a PA (if you want a better sound). I know that you can just plug and play into a DI, and they vary greatly in quality, but a preamp/DI combo really gives you more control of your sound before the mixer.

[Br1ck]

First, you need to know your application. Solo or duo performance is one thing, a full band another. As you add instruments, you need to take into account where a guitar fits in a mix, and that becomes more important than realistic sound IMHO.

Solo or duo performance, I'd use a SBT like a K & K mini with a mic and blend to taste, but a K&K will get the job done on it's own. I like the minimalist approach myself and plug into a RedEye direct box then into my amp. My RedEye has never failed to make any piezo PU sound better.

The Anthem works well in a larger group with perhaps a pre with more EQ. The under saddle pickup is mated with a mic in this system, and while I don't like USTs in general, see where this can work with the mic.

I have a Lyric in one guitar and really like it for solo, but I can see it's limitations.

The sound board transducer is for me the best compromise. I happen to use Dazzos.

[jseth]

To clarify, the Anthem pickups HAVE a preamp in the system already... adding another is quite unnecessary, unless it's part of whatever rig you're using. The MORE stuff you put between the guitar and amplifier/pa, the more chance for your signal to degrade...


Well, the first thing I'd suggest is to upgrade your Ultrasound to a Bose system; I have the L1 Model II with the Tonematch T1 mixer/tone generator, and I have NEVER played and sang through any system that sounds nearly as "lifelike", even though I've played through some great PAs over the past 45 years... the Bose truly excels with the acoustic guitar and voice. The "line array" tower is vastly different from the standard "point and shoot" pa system... the L1 seems to surround the audience (and the performer) with the sound, in a very non-directional manner, giving this rig the ability to sound GREAT to you as you play, and sound very close to the same volume and the same tone to a table 50' or more away from the stage... at the same time, a couple sitting at a table near the stage can hold a conversation without having to scream at each other... there is virtually NO drop-off or hot spots in the dispersion, which Bose claims to be 180 degrees, but I have found it to be slightly better than that!

I have the Anthem SL installed in both my Mark Angus 6 and 12 string guitars, and I am very happy with the sound of them through the Bose or through my AER Compact. Through the Bose T1 unit, I use the 'overall" flat setting and eq slightly from there using the 3 band that's in the unit... very natural and much more dynamic than my previous Fishman Matrix UST pickups. When I run those guitars through the little AER, I have to tweak each, differently to get a sound I like, but it IS doable...

I don't think your issue is with the pickup; do you have the "full" Anthem with the huge control module in the soundhole, or the "slim line" SL version? I know that the balance setting between the UST and the True-Mic is critical to the overall sound... if you have the big one, you might want to go back and be sure you are using the thing in the way it's supposed to be used... the full Anthem has a LOT of different options and can be difficult to "dial in" for the uninitiated; that's one of the reasons I got the SL version.

Anything made by AER is a great bet, as well as Bose. Depending upon your requirements, they both offer a multiple of great choices... you WILL pay the price for great sound, however... but after all these years of performing, I have come to accept that as part of "doing business" with live sound reinforcement. Certainly, there are other companies who make quality gear, but to my mind, for an acoustic guitarist and singer, NOTHING can touch those Bose L1 systems!

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by playme

Thanks to everyone for your responses. I really do appreciate it!

By the way I have been reading here for a very long time so am not new to the forum. Just not much of a poster.

So if I am understanding correctly:

1. Anthem is a good pickup and can be a great starting point maybe coupled with an external mic. or consider an external mic exclusively depending on my performance style

2. An excellent pre-amp is very important (so signal from pickup to pre-amp then into PA system? Or do I need a small mixer prior to the PA? Are their software's that can be used instead of a physical mixing board?)

3. Use a PA system instead of guitar amp (can include vocals this way)

4. Buy the best you can afford with any of these pieces of equipment

Again thanks to all of you!

The Anthem is a pretty high end pickup IMO. You might just not like the tone and that's totally fine but I am not sure if I would buy into the argument that you need to spend more. I personally wouldn't go cheap when buying preamps and pa systems etc but you don't have to go broke as well. Fishman, Lr Baggs, Radial etc all make extremely high end preamps and Di's that are very well priced.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by playme

Tcation over the past 15 years and just 'assumed' that the difficulties of electrical amplification of acoustics had been overcome by the incredible technology we find around us.

....

Having said that I remember watching recently a Lindsey Buckingham live concert in which he performed Never Goin Back Again and Big Love on his acoustic. The sound was classic Buckingham and not as deep and full as I like in an acoustic sound but never the less was excellent.

Its rather shocking, but I don't think your basic assumption is true. We have lots of different amplification choices these days, but there hasn't really been any significant breakthru in pickups in the past 15 years, and arguably much longer than that. The Lyric could count as a breakthru, in that it's a very different approach, but most of the basic technology we still use has been around since the 80's, and many people still use systems invented back then. The thing everyone claims to want, "just like my guitar, but louder" remains an unsolved problem. Sound that is "good" is possible tho.

A big thing to keep in mind when listening something like Lindsey in concert is that he's playing thru a sound system that may have cost 100's of thousands of dollars, and he has professional sound guys with racks of gear to tweak to make him sound good. Also, there's a lot of psychology going on in a situation like this, you have Lindsey playing a great song with the touch and feel that matches the way we heard the tune on record - it's his tune, so we take even any "flaws" in his playing as "correct", and our ears tend to hear what we want to hear. Put someone else up there with the same guitar playing some tune you don't know and like, and you might hear the tone differently.

In any case, the biggest component of a great sound, after the player, is the sound system. A small combo amp will always be a compromise at best. So if you want the best sound you can get, consider the best PA system you can afford. Once you have a good sound system, adding a real mic to the mix can help a lot, either inside the guitar or out. It also takes time to learn how to get the sound, adapting your fingers and touch. I once heard a startling demo of a great player playing thru a totally messed up sound system, and making it sound great, just with his "touch".

As to electronics knowledge, I totally get the Toyota analogy, but we're not there. We're at the Model T level in acoustic amplification, a time when most people had to be semi-knowedgable car mechanics just to take a drive. Someone who can get us to the "just drive it" level will have a big hit on their hands.

[Ed-in-Ohio]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

...snip...the old adage "you get what you pay for" is still front and center IMHO. If you want a high end sound capable of being used in a variety of venues, you will need to spend the money.
...snip...

Huge +1. This is almost always the case with gear overall anyways, but I have found this rule to hold particularly true for acoustic amplification and microphones.

It's almost not too much of a stretch to simply say the more you spend, the better the results are going to be.

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by playme

If you care to share Steve, I'd be interested in know your chain from start to completion.

I am a big fan of the KISS principle.

My signal chain is: guitar-K&K-RedEye preamp-SA220.

The key to this system is the understanding that every venue is different and requires different EQ. The SA220 has all the EQ, Reverb, and notch filtering I have needed so far. I continue to get unsolicited compliments on my sound, and the entire rig can be set up / broken down in 15 minutes.


Steve

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

I am a big fan of the KISS principle.

My signal chain is: guitar-K&K-RedEye preamp-SA220.

The key to this system is the understanding that every venue is different and requires different EQ. The SA220 has all the EQ, Reverb, and notch filtering I have needed so far. I continue to get unsolicited compliments on my sound, and the entire rig can be set up / broken down in 15 minutes.


Steve

Interesting that you use the Red-Eye in front of the SA220. Does it improve your signal that much? I'm seriously considering a Red-Eye because of all the rave reviews and I like that it offers an effects loop and runs on phantom power. I would love to hear why you went with this device and how it compares to others you have used.

[mikeguthro]

I have a Baggs Ibeam on a dreadnought - works ok but tends to be too boomy and/or too trebly depending on install location - and just not close enough to un-amplified tone for my taste

I have an Anthem in an OM which I prefer to the Ibeam but I'm still hearing the UST quack effect especially when driving it harder - and this effect is not confined to the bass strings

Every video I've found of the Baggs Lyric sounds like un-amplified tone. I'm planning to buy one soon. The tone persists on hard driven picking and strumming. There are quite a few comparison videos on YouTube involving Anthem, K&K, Ibeam and Lyric. In every video, I found the Lyric was the only one that provided natural un-amplified tone, such that I can conceive of using it instead of a mic for recording.

Feedback is not concern for me. I use the Baggs PADI with the the Ibeam and the Anthem - mainly to cut the boominess. I've read that the Lyric may lack bass but that could be a plus I don't have to cut boominess.

Bottom line for me - after listening to a couple of dozen videos, the Lyric sounds right to me and none of the others does.

[Captain Jim]

Considering the typical audience size (80) and your budget (3 to $5K), you have a bunch of options. Two well-proven sound systems have already been mentioned: Bose and the Fishman SA220. For that size crowd, a Bose L1 Compact would do a fine job. Either of those are available for less than $1k. Add a mic, stand, and a mixer or ToneMatch (for the Bose), and you are still coming in way under budget.

Instead of a DI or mixer, I use a small Fishman Loudbox Mini for the EQ and run a direct line from that out to the Bose. I have different pickups on my guitars, and have no issue getting the sound I like with any of those.

That said, I am less about "sounding like the guitar only louder" and more about getting a sound I like. It is a bit like getting more performance out of a car, boat, or airplane: you will spend a LOT of money on the last bit of difference. And with sound, no one in the audience will be as critical of the sound as you... as long as you play music they like in an entertaining, engaging way.

I am not saying the sound isn't important... just saying that last bit isn't critical for the audience. I have a Roland Cube Street that I bought to take on our boat, and for the occasional dock gig where getting electricity isn't convenient (battery operated). It isn't "high fidelity" - my wife says, "That sure doesn't sound as good as your regular set-up," (no surprise there) but it still gets compliments.

I have never been satisfied with using a mic on the guitar in any live situation... I stand when I play out, and move a bit. A pickup is the easiest way to amplify an acoustic. From what you describe with your equipment and the intended situation, I would audition some better sound equipment (PA).

Good luck with the search,
Jim

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by mikeguthro

Every video I've found of the Baggs Lyric sounds like un-amplified tone. I'm planning to buy one soon. The tone persists on hard driven picking and strumming. There are quite a few comparison videos on YouTube involving Anthem, K&K, Ibeam and Lyric. In every video, I found the Lyric was the only one that provided natural un-amplified tone, such that I can conceive of using it instead of a mic for recording.

I bought the Lyric about a year ago but only got around to installing it recently. I was worried about feedback and the lack of bass that I had heard about but I am very impressed with it. I did the install myself, which was super easy. The demo videos sound nice but in person the pickup really shines. It's the first pickup that has generally made me excited to plug in. I can dig in or play lightly and it always sound very natural. The body noise has not bothered me at all and I have used it in loud environments without any feedback. I am not sure if it's the best pickup in the long run since I do like a bit of enhanced bass but I am thinking of leaving it in my one acoustic just to use for strumming.

[playme]

Wow!

Thanks to all of you so much as you've all given me more information in a few short comments that will take me months to try out. I'm really appreciative of your comments.

One comment that was made and I hadn't thought about much but makes so much sense is 'making your own sound'. I performed when younger but haven't been out in a long time and play mostly with just the acoustic box.

If I'm anticipated taking performing more serious then I need to practice using my performance gear so as to develop that personal sound and delivery that is comfortable to me and seems 'right' to my ears. Such a good comment.

Again thanks to everyone for your help!

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by steelvibe

Interesting that you use the Red-Eye in front of the SA220. Does it improve your signal that much? I would love to hear why you went with this device and how it compares to others you have used.

The answer to your first question lies within the answer to you second question.

I was happily going directly from my K&K to my SA220. Then I acquired a "sonic nightmare" gig, very small room, all reflective surfaces, and always packed with people trying to converse over their expensive dinners.



In this situation, my sound went to mush. Turning up was not the answer because the people sitting right in front of me would have not been happy. So, seeing lots of folks post that using a pre-amp with K&K was a good thing, I went looking. Since it seemed to make sense that the company who made the pickup, K&K, would make the best pre-amp for it, I was going to go that route. But, it just so happened that an AGF member was raving about RedEye and offered to send me one just to try. So, I found a K&K supplier with a good return policy and ordered the K&K unit.

As luck would have it, both the K&K and the RedEye arrived the same day, which just happened to be the day of this gig. So off I went with both in hand. That evening I first tried the K&K because I really wanted it to be the winner since it had more features (knobs) and was cheaper. When I put it into the signal, it helped, not a lot, but it did help. Then I switched in the RedEye and the contest was over. It truly sharpened and defined my tone so that the people across the room could hear as well without drowning out the people close to me. I should add that I use the single EQ on the RedEye to increase the sharpness and definition as the crowd size dictates. If things are relatively quiet in a good room, I leave it at 12:00. If the room is bad, or, as the crowd increases and gets noisier, I increase it to as much as 9:00 to keep things sharp defined.

Now to your first question, yes, and, I have no idea why. I was a Creative Writing major. It just does.

Steve

[janmulder]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

As to electronics knowledge, I totally get the Toyota analogy, but we're not there. We're at the Model T level in acoustic amplification, a time when most people had to be semi-knowedgable car mechanics just to take a drive. Someone who can get us to the "just drive it" level will have a big hit on their hands.

I was wanting to make a comment to the not wanting to know about or caring to learn about the nuts and bolts of acoustic amplification and the TV/Toyota analogy ... but I couldn't have said it better than this.

I'd say, though, that we're not even near the Model T stage yet ... since they were ready built, ready to go cars off a production line ... just add petrol. What is being sought here is more like buying the major components from different sources and building the car yourself. I've done that before and to do that right with little or no interest in the technology involved would have been challenging.

So I'd say, if you want to DiY and end up with a decent sounding system I'd embrace the fact that you could do worse than learn a few basics about the technology (which I think is already happening from the comments so far) ... otherwise, to save yourself a heep of money and trial and error ... just go to a good music store and buy a ready to go system. There's plenty to choose from from out there.