The proper way to amplify the acoustic-electric to a PA, for a live gig

[nhbiker1961]

Originally Posted by diego

First of all, I should tell you that I'm playing in a duo band - it's me on the guitar + a female vocal. Thus, I really have no problem with the feedback/interference with the minimal equipment on stage, and I never got myself a DI box for that matter.

I'm playing Yamaha CPX500II with its original pickup, and I also have no problem with the signal level when I plug it straight to the mixer, and there's no noise. Again, no need for a DI Box. So, what I did so far is plugging a guitar straight to the mix, or plugging it the effect pedals/processor, and then to the mix. I'm also playing in a quality Dynacord mix and FBT speakers, but I'm still not satisfied with the sound I'm getting (I don't know how to explain, it's a "raw", sharp, not quite pleasant color of tone, not "warm" enough). I'm fairly new with this live gig thing, always played at home, and just wanna check if I'm missing something, and if I can get an advice from the experienced fellow musicians - where do you think I should invest money to raise it to a next level?

I am also playing in an acoustic duo with a female singer. I use a Fishman mini amp then use a line out to the PA. This allows me to hear the guitar on stage without feedback caused by putting the guitar through the floor monitor and allows me to EQ it from the amp instead of the PA. It has worked well for years.

[Vancebo]

You are getting good advice. I wanted to add a few things.

YOU ARE NOT ALONE! You are experiencing what most of us here have experienced. The dreaded under the saddle transducer (UST). They don't sound anything like a guitar, but as you can tell, it cut through the crowd effectively. Not a great sound, but many people accept it. You might be also experiencing the dreaded piezo "Quack". We can't necessarily hear it on the recording, but it may be the sound you are experiencing when you start strumming hard. What you are doing is the signals gets squashed and starts sounding unpleasant. Some techies can tell you more than I about what's going on. It may sound okay when you are fingerpicking or playing lightly. The advice you are getting about EQ is good. You that method to cut out the most offending sound you can find. Means moving the dial to the left of 12:00.

Lastly, this is the life of a UST. If it still doesn't suit you, there are other systems that sound more natural and pleasing but they may not cut through the roar of a loud room such as the one you are playing in. Keep asking the questions, you may be on a bit of journey that isn't necessarily easy or cheap. You may find an easy solution just by learning to better use what you already have. It just takes patience and time.

Good luck.

[diego]

Originally Posted by lschwart

Your best bet is to work that AMF control or the sweepable mid on the little Behringer preamp when you get it (and maybe it's mic/tube emulator).

I did a little test at my home mini-PA, and through the computer's sound card... you're right, I think I got better results immediately when pulling the mid-range knob at 9 o'clock, after I determined (when it was at max) that the most annoying AMF control place is slightly closer to 10K from the middle position. I still used Zoom 504, because I'm sure I'll get better results with it than without it on a live stage (tried and proved that one). Zoom 504, although an old device, acts as a pre-amp as well and I can shape the tone further with it. I recorded a little demo now with the AMF slider slightly to the right and mid cut to almost 9 o'clock, and both bass and high around 12 o'clock:

TEST PLAYING

It still has that "sharp", and brittle sound I was explaining, but somewhat to a lesser extent, I think. Of course, it might sound completely different once on a stage and on a PA.

Originally Posted by nhbiker1961

I am also playing in an acoustic duo with a female singer. I use a Fishman mini amp then use a line out to the PA. This allows me to hear the guitar on stage without feedback caused by putting the guitar through the floor monitor and allows me to EQ it from the amp instead of the PA. It has worked well for years.

Great pic! That's smart, though I too have mix console close at hand when playing, and didn't really have need for additional guitar monitor yet.

Originally Posted by Vancebo

Lastly, this is the life of a UST. If it still doesn't suit you, there are other systems that sound more natural and pleasing but they may not cut through the roar of a loud room such as the one you are playing in. Keep asking the questions, you may be on a bit of journey that isn't necessarily easy or cheap. You may find an easy solution just by learning to better use what you already have. It just takes patience and time.

Good luck.

Thanks! Yeah, perhaps additional mic or magnet on my guitar would help, I'll definitely test that ground at one point.

[nhbiker1961]

The dreaded piezo "Quack I addressed with a bodyrez pedal. It seems to help smooth out the piezo pickup.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by diego

I did a little test at my home mini-PA, and through the computer's sound card... you're right, I think I got better results immediately when pulling the mid-range knob at 9 o'clock, after I determined (when it was at max) that the most annoying AMF control place is slightly closer to 10K from the middle position. I still used Zoom 504, because I'm sure I'll get better results with it than without it on a live stage (tried and proved that one). Zoom 504, although an old device, acts as a pre-amp as well and I can shape the tone further with it. I recorded a little demo now with the AMF slider slightly to the right and mid cut to almost 9 o'clock, and both bass and high around 12 o'clock:

TEST PLAYING

It still has that "sharp", and brittle sound I was explaining, but somewhat to a lesser extent, I think. Of course, it might sound completely different once on a stage and on a PA.

Good! I'm glad that was helpful. The recording sounds to me like an undersaddle transducer EQ'd to reduce some of that characteristic sound that a lot of people call "quack." In my experience, without another source to blend in or a digital modeler/imager like the Fishman Aura, that's just the way this kind of pickup sounds. Not a lot that can be done about it beyond what we've discussed. Some people like that sound. If you don't, you'd do best to blend, get an Aura (or similar) unit, or a different kind of pickup.

Louis

[diego]

As I played a bit with my Zoom 504 which acts a a pre-amp and has a solid number of options to shape the tone (along with "air" option to mimic the microphone amplification), I managed to get one decent "default" sound to use on gigs, and memorized it with/without chorus. Thus, I gave up on buying preamps, DI-Box, EQ... for now, and gone the other route:

I spent 1 hour today in music instruments store trying simple Seymour Duncan Woody HC pickup, to blend with the piezo on Yamaha CPX500II, on a basic PA system. I simply connected to two channels on mix (piezo + Woody), and tested it - through piezo, as expected, the signal is much louder - to give you idea, when piezo volume at guitar pickup is set at 12 o'clock, than in order for Woody and piezo signal to be at the same volume level, Woody's channel needs to be at max, while piezo channel is at 9 o'clock. Woody's sound (without piezo) sounded a bit more like the natural "acoustic" sound, though a bit muddy, and gave some more "drumming" options at the left body's side, while piezo has a wider frequency and generally more "space" to it. The best result was in blend, roughly speaking - using 60% from piezo sound and 40% from Woody, or even 70-30. In that regard, Woody's channel was at max, piezo's channel on 10 o'clock, and piezo volume at guitar pickup at around 2 o'clock. I managed to lost a bit of that sharp piezo sound, but to maintain the frequency range.

Now for the sweetest part - Zoom 504 actually has two inputs - HIGH and LOW, and "high" is for acoustic with pickups, and "low" for piezo - and both can work simultaneously, so my next step is to try to connect Woody and piezo to Zoom, and then just use one output to mix channel. I will lose separate Woody's control on mix, but that way I can only control the dosage of piezo on Yamaha and it'll work. In any way, I think I'll buy Woody for the next gig (it might sound completely different on that other PA, but oh well )

[adaw2821]

I don't know of this is the right place to ask or not but I'm looking for advice on electronics as well. I have a Yamaha A3R which I absolutely love. I always play through a PA with no Di as I believe the a3r has a preamp and doesn't need it. It has a piezo pu and mic Modeling I believe similar to the fishman aura.

There is no piezo quack due to the Modeling but it seams thin sounding when played live. But then I had a friend play it while I listened and thought it sounded great. Is it possible this is just due to monitor speakers, or sound board settings? Maybe playing styles. But it sounds fantastic to me acoustic. tA first I thought it was the guitar electronics until I had my friend play it.

Any suggestions?

[MikeBmusic]

Originally Posted by adaw2821

I don't know of this is the right place to ask or not but I'm looking for advice on electronics as well. I have a Yamaha A3R which I absolutely love. I always play through a PA with no Di as I believe the a3r has a preamp and doesn't need it. It has a piezo pu and mic Modeling I believe similar to the fishman aura.

There is no piezo quack due to the Modeling but it seams thin sounding when played live. But then I had a friend play it while I listened and thought it sounded great. Is it possible this is just due to monitor speakers, or sound board settings? Maybe playing styles. But it sounds fantastic to me acoustic. tA first I thought it was the guitar electronics until I had my friend play it.

Any suggestions?

You would do better starting a new thread here rather than tacking on to an unrelated one.
Differences in sound heard can be attributed to where in the room you are and what the speakers are. Certainly the monitor speaker could sound different than the main speakers. But how close to the guitar/stage were you when you listened to your friend playing? you could also have been hearing the direct sound of the guitar more than you would when you are holding it and playing.

[Don1]

Originally Posted by Mandobart

You have discovered why you need a preamp/DI. Many players brag how their pu signal is so hot they don't need a preamp or DI. They think the purpose of the preamp or DI is to boost the signal. They are incorrect. Piezo pu's have an impedance in the Megohm range. Most mixer inputs are for 100 to 1000 times less than that. The impedance mismatch results in a harsh, tinny, sometimes brittle sound. A good DI or preamp will match the impedance of your pickup to the mixer. Alternately, an acoustic amp or mixer with a "high Z" input (z is the symbol for impedance) will correct this. I'm slightly surprised that the Yamaha CPX500II on board preamp isn't up to the task - could need a new battery, it could be faulty or it may just not work as well as several options I've used: Art Tube MP, Behringer ADI21, K&K Pure or the best I've used yet Redeye.

Doesn't the onboard preamp (of the Yamaha) already mitigate the impedance issue? Certainly, some additional outboard EQ might add some useful tonal shaping, but provided the guitar cord isn't stretching further than a few meters, yet another preamp just adds another gain stage, no?

[Mandobart]

Originally Posted by Don1

Doesn't the onboard preamp (of the Yamaha) already mitigate the impedance issue? Certainly, some additional outboard EQ might add some useful tonal shaping, but provided the guitar cord isn't stretching further than a few meters, yet another preamp just adds another gain stage, no?

Again, I'm slightly surprised that the Yamaha CPX500II on board preamp isn't up to the task (of providing the proper impedance match). It could need a new battery (I think we all know someone who never knew theirs had a battery that needed periodic replacement). Likewise it could be faulty. I sometimes use 20' cords downstream of my preamp - no noticeable effect on volume or tone.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Don1

Doesn't the onboard preamp (of the Yamaha) already mitigate the impedance issue?

yes, this is a common misconception. Having a high impedance input is only important when you're directly connecting a *passive* piezo pickup. With a system like this, the pickup itself is buffered by the onboard preamp. The imepdance match happens between the pickup and the onboard preamp.