Tracking to an external drive?

[runamuck]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Aah, but processors CAN perform multiple tasks at once. The whole multi-core thing is exactly that. On my MacBook Pro I have 4 cores. So 4 simultaneous instructions. Now if 1 process is managing writing a swap file & another is writing your audio to disk, but they’re both going to the same physical drive you have s bottleneck. At some point that bottleneck will manifest itself as a problem with your audio file because the OS will prioritize it’s process (writing the swap file) over a 3rd party process (your DAW writing the audio file).

This is why you want to record to a drive that is not your boot drive. External or internal secondary drive...whatever works for you.

There are also other considerations. I am simplifying a bit. We can also get into the nitty gritty of disk controllers & data busses & how they communicate. But that may be more detail than we need to get into.

Does that help demystify this a bit?

That's very helpful. I encourage you to continue.

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by runamuck

That's very helpful. I encourage you to continue.

......Me too

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Aah, but processors CAN perform multiple tasks at once. The whole multi-core thing is exactly that. On my MacBook Pro I have 4 cores. So 4 simultaneous instructions. Now if 1 process is managing writing a swap file & another is writing your audio to disk, but they’re both going to the same physical drive you have s bottleneck. At some point that bottleneck will manifest itself as a problem with your audio file because the OS will prioritize it’s process (writing the swap file) over a 3rd party process (your DAW writing the audio file).

This is why you want to record to a drive that is not your boot drive. External or internal secondary drive...whatever works for you.

There are also other considerations. I am simplifying a bit. We can also get into the nitty gritty of disk controllers & data busses & how they communicate. But that may be more detail than we need to get into.

Does that help demystify this a bit?

Thanks for the above. Very interesting and I agree getting into too much technical data would be more than we need to get into . And yes the "At some point a bottleneck will manifest" makes sense .
As I said, I am by no means a computer tech. I am a driver and not a mechanic .
In point of fact I actually still do record to a secondary drive and alway have since it is what Digi recommended back when I got into DAW recording in 2003, and currently I am still using an older cheese grater Mid 2010 Mac Pro, which originally only had spinner HD's 3 as a matter of fact.

But I need to thank you because even though I had heard the term 'swap files" I really didn't know what they were. I had to google up the term and found this. Which seems to shed some light on the subject.

"Basically when your Mac needs memory it will push something that isn’t currently being used into a swapfile for temporary storage. When it needs accessing again, it will read the data from the swap file and back into memory. In a sense this can create unlimited memory, but it is significantly slower since it is limited by the speed of your hard disk, versus the near immediacy of reading data from RAM. "

[MikeBmusic]

The whole 'track to a secondary drive thing was frequently mentioned in the HomeRecording forums 6 years ago when I was just starting to PC record, but external drives were way above my budget, and my computer at the time had no extra drive slots. Current Win 7 computer, not super fast, 6G of RAM, never had an issue when recording (occasional crashes unrelated to the recording software, of course). Yesterday I was tracking MIDI, one track at a time, had 10 tracks with a VSTi on each by the time I was done, as well as the 10 audio tracks and EZ Drummer 2 and never had a glitch. When I was done tracking the MIDI, I rendered all to audio for regular volume and EQ processing.

[DupleMeter]

There's not a lot more to get into, unless you want to delve into the minutiae of disk controllers & buss communications...which isn't going to be particularly interesting to most. Heck, I understand it and I don't even want to get into that level of detail

The big take-away is really this: if you want to be safe, use a secondary drive. If you push a boot drive you will degrade your audio. The problem is that you may not have a good enough setup (or your ears may not be tuned in enough) to hear the degradation...that does not mean it isn't happening. In situations like like those, the issues start long before they become obvious.

The other thing to think about is that if you do record to your boot drive you are working it harder than it needs to be worked & are shortening it's lifespan. That's also a problem that only becomes obvious when it's too late.

HTH

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

The big take-away is really this: if you want to be safe, use a secondary drive.

Yes I absolutely agree with this especially given the fact that the current state (storage) and health of everyone's internal drives (here on the forum), at least for purposes of this discussion, are an unknown. I see some indication that perhaps some folks may not have file management at the top of their "to do" list. There can be no doubt a good performing external drive(s) is a tremendous addition especially when file management is not a priority.

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

If you push a boot drive you will degrade your audio. The problem is that you may not have a good enough setup (or your ears may not be tuned in enough) to hear the degradation...that does not mean it isn't happening. In situations like like those, the issues start long before they become obvious.

Yea you got me on this one. In all my years tech supporting for Avid/Digideign I've never heard this? I'd be interested in your thoughts on this one. I've certainly heard of all sorts of problems arising form a drive that's failing. I also heard endless problems from drives that are not properly maintained, are too slow, are fragmented or have taken on some aliment either software, firmware or hardware induced but never heard of the idea of "tracking to an internal drive" somehow degrades the audio. Like I said I'd be interested in your take.

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

The other thing to think about is that if you do record to your boot drive you are working it harder than it needs to be worked & are shortening it's lifespan. That's also a problem that only becomes obvious when it's too late. HTH

Of course the older drives, including the old 10K scsi drives were in a constant state of dying from the very moment you spun them up. Drives are mechanical and they wear out. There's little one can do about that but I've never really concerned myself with sparing them from extra work. For me that's like grandma putting plastic over the living room couch But the entire gist of my position here is what made external drives dang near mandatory in the ancient world of DAW's is now primarily gone or at very least rapidly disappearing. The wives tale and mantra of one absolutely must record to an external drive no longer applies across the board. Solid State Drives (at least theoretically) don't have a lifespan as there's no mechanical parts. They're blazingly fast and Titanically large and they manage file storage in an amazingly efficient manner.

Again I'm not advocating the abandonment of external drives. I have them lying around ever nook and cranny of both my home and bay at work. They're a wonderful tool and they still provide virtually all the advantages they always have.

[Ty Ford]

and, while we're at this, please let's distinguish between an external second drive and an internal second drive.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

and, while we're at this, please let's distinguish between an external second drive and an internal second drive.

We've tried. We've tried.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

We've tried. We've tried.

Yes But: I think perhaps there are actually two different discussions .


#1 is writing to a second drive (other than boot drive) as significant a factor "currently" in terms of reliable performance as it was in the past ? In which case I don't see the distinction in logistics between being the second drive internal or external, as being all that important per se .

#2 if the second drive is external then does transfer speed become a possible issue as opposed to internal again "currently", in which case the distinction could be important.

It would seem to me that if you have multiple internal drives and there is room on them (like I do) then there is probably no reason to not write to a second one . But that is not the same discussion as if you do not have a second internal drive.

I think the real question in this discussion is . If you don't have multiple internal drives and your recording situation is A. amateur and/or B. of little to only modest complexity and C. you have plenty of room on the internal SSD drive, then is a writing to second drive really all that significant a factor to consider ?

Now obviously backing up to a second drive is still highly advisable but that is obviously a 3 rd discussion.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Yes But: I think perhaps there are actually two different discussions .


#1 is writing to a second drive (other than boot drive) as significant a factor "currently" in terms of reliable performance as it was in the past ? In which case I don't see the distinction in logistics between being the second drive internal or external, as being all that important per se .

Doesn't sound like it is, which is great news. But on the older of my two systems, an internal second drive handles high track counts better than an external second drive, regardless of whether it's a spinner or an SSD. There's still that.

And when it comes to the system and the DAW software and the audio all being on the same drive, it's gonna be a while before I get past the president-and-vice-president-on-the-same-plane thing.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

Doesn't sound like it is, which is great news. But on the older of my two systems, an internal second drive handles high track counts better than an external second drive, regardless of whether it's a spinner or an SSD. There's still that.

And when it comes to the system and the DAW software and the audio all being on the same drive, it's gonna be a while before I get past the president-and-vice-president-on-the-same-plane thing.

Well that would be less problematic if there were backup clones of the Pres. and VP that were constantly being updated with new data

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Well that would be less problematic if there were backup clones of the Pres. and VP that were constantly being updated with new data

Actually, when it comes to the same-plane thing, that's another precaution that might have become outdated. :-)

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

Actually, when it comes to the same-plane thing, that's another precaution that might have become outdated. :-)

wait ! wait !!!! ... is that the Doors second album playing over and over at the subliminal decibel level, or just the scream of the butterfly ?

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by KevWind

I think the real question in this discussion is . If you don't have multiple internal drives and your recording situation is A. amateur and/or B. of little to only modest complexity and C. you have plenty of room on the internal SSD drive, then is a writing to second drive really all that significant a factor to consider ?

Now obviously backing up to a second drive is still highly advisable but that is obviously a 3 rd discussion.

For those who don't have the patience to read the thread.....This is a good place to start.

I think given the above conditions, it's not significant.

Backup! Oh, definitely. Internal or external.

The "internal" presumes that you have the ability to get to that internal drive if the computer dies. I have a ribbon cable and box rig that let's me connect a raw drive by its SATA connector and bring it up on another computer via Firewire or USB. I don't often use it, but it does come in handy.

If you're looking for one of them, lemme know and I'll get it out of my skunk works.