Rhythm (or the complete lack of)

[motojunky]

Good morning AGF. I'm fairly new to the guitar and have been teaching myself how to make recognizable noise. As I make slow but steady progress on that front, I realize that I have a very limited sense of rhythm.

I can count along to songs that are in 4/4 time, but I'm lost when the time signature changes - I can't even easily recognize when it's not in 4/4 time. I'm looking for suggestions for a few songs that are not 4/4 (please clue me in with the correct time) so that I can listen and try to get my head around the time.

Any tips would also be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[stanron]

Anything with the word 'waltz' in the title is likely to have three beats in the bar or be in 3/4 time.

[pekes]

Norwegian Wood by The Beatles is in 3/4 time

think... bass (note) strum strum / bass strum strum / bass strum strum / bass strum strum

all the accents, bass note or strum, are all downstrokes

hope that helps

[Pualee]

Originally Posted by motojunky

I can't even easily recognize when it's not in 4/4 time.
Thanks!

Tap your foot to the quarter note beat. Count the beats between chord changes.

If it sounds like chords change on multiples of 3, think 3/4 or 6/8. If it is a multiple of 2 (usually every 4 or 8), it is probably 4/4.

Sorry, that's all I've got right now (that is my method).

[motojunky]

Thanks, this does help.

If I listen to the song below, I hear a pattern of 3 strums per measure but I was struggling to understand if it was 3/4 or 6/8. I realize that the chord change is every 6 beats/strums... so, 6/8?

[Bingoccc]

Sounds like 3/4 (waltz time) to me. I think of 6/8 as jig time but I guess it depends on how you play it.

[motojunky]

Originally Posted by Bingoccc

Sounds like 3/4 (waltz time) to me. I think of 6/8 as jig time but I guess it depends on how you play it.

Could you (or someone) post a link to something in 6/8 for reference?

Thanks!

[Earwitness]

It's strange, and doesn't match what the "math" of it looks like, but a 6/8 is really more like a 2/4 , not a 3/4.

A 3/4 can have 6 eighth notes in a measure, same as a 6/8 song does, but the grouping is different:

1. 3/4 would sound like: // XX XX XX //--ie, three groups of two, and you can hear the 1,2,3 repeated underneath. Of the six eighth note beats, the emphasis is on 1,3 and 5.
2. 6/8 would sound like: // XXX XXX //--ie, two groups of three, and it's more "triplet, triplet; triplet, triplet" and more simulates // X X // X X //--the beats are on 1 and 4

I know that theoretically, you could slow a 6/8 down so much that the triplets would sound 3-ish, but a waltz is a dance, and so if the 1,2,3 is at a pace that you could realistically take a step on each count, it's definitely a 3/4.

[Earwitness]

edited, to change my mind

[motojunky]

Originally Posted by Earwitness

It's strange, and doesn't match what the "math" of it looks like, but a 6/8 is really more like a 2/4 , not a 3/4.

A 3/4 can have 6 eighth notes in a measure, same as a 6/8 song does, but the grouping is different:

1. 3/4 would sound like: // XX XX XX //--ie, three groups of two, and you can hear the 1,2,3 repeated underneath. Of the six eighth note beats, the emphasis is on 1,3 and 5.
2. 6/8 would sound like: // XXX XXX //--ie, two groups of three, and it's more "triplet, triplet; triplet, triplet" and more simulates // X X // X X //--the beats are on 1 and 4

I know that theoretically, you could slow a 6/8 down so much that the triplets would sound 3-ish, but a waltz is a dance, and so if the 1,2,3 is at a pace that you could realistically take a step on each count, it's definitely a 3/4.

I'm going to have to re-read this later, when there is less distraction.

Thanks!

[stanron]

A jig has two beats each of which divides into three, hence the 6/8 time signature. You count

one, two, three, one, two, three for each bar. Here are a couple of jigs played on a mandolin by Brian McGillicuddy,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ2R9EoeJjY

and very nicely too.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by motojunky

Could you (or someone) post a link to something in 6/8 for reference?

Thanks!

Traditional 6/8 is fast, like Irish jigs (see above), or cheesy, jolly old tunes like "We're off to see the wizard". The count is "One-and-a-Two-and-a": two beats in the bar, each divided into 3. Two triplets if you like, rum-pi-ty-tum-pi-ty .

Two traditional examples:

6/8  
 BEATS|X    .    .    X    .    .   |X    .    .    X    .    .   |X    .    .    X    .    .   |X
count:|1   and   a    2   and   a   |1   and   a    2   and   a   |1   and   a    2   and   a   |1
  For |he's      a   joll--y   good |fel-----------low       for  |he's      a   jol--ly   good |fel..
we're |off       to  see       the  |wi-zard                 the  |won-der-ful    wi-zard   of  |Oz

In rock and pop, 6/8 is usually a lot slower, common in ballads, but still felt as two (slow) beats, each divided into three.
Classic examples:
House of the Rising Sun
Nights in White Satin
When a Man Loves a Woman
Somebody to Love (Queen)
We are the champions (")
I guess that's why they call it the blues (Elton John)
Shiver (Coldplay)

6/8  
 BEATS|X    .    .    X    .    .   |X    .    .    X    .    .   |X    .    .    X    .    .   |X
count:|1   and   a    2   and   a   |1   and   a    2   and   a   |1   and   a    2   and   a   |1
There |is                       a   |house                    in  |New  Or-leans                |
      |             Nights in white |Sa-tin                       |        never reach-ing the  |end
When a|man               loves  a   |wo------------man            |              can't keep his |mind
      |Wise                         |men                          |say                          |
    I |heard    there was       a   |se--cret chord          that |Da---vid played     and it   |pleased
      |We            are       the  |cham----pions           my   |friend
   I  |guess   that's     why they  |call      it        the      |blues                        |time

All those could be counted as "1-2-3, 1-2-3" etc, but the sets of 3 beats clearly fall into pairs, with the snare drum marking the second "1" as an off-beat. That means 6 beats in a bar - but if you count them all as beats that makes the music sound way too fast. Counting "1-2-3-4-5-6" just doesn't feel right: "1-and-a-2-and-a" feels much more appropriate, and we notate that feel as 6/8.
That's because we have no note symbol that means 1/6 of a bar. We only have quarters and 8ths (and halves, 16ths, etc). So we have to use 8ths.
We could notate the exact same feel as 2/4, and mark the two groups of three 8ths as triplets (brackets and figure "3" above) - but that's way too fussy the whole way through a piece.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by motojunky

Thanks, this does help.

If I listen to the song below, I hear a pattern of 3 strums per measure but I was struggling to understand if it was 3/4 or 6/8. I realize that the chord change is every 6 beats/strums... so, 6/8?

Yes, 6/8.

It's not just the chord changes, although that's a good pointer. It's the fact that those 3 strums fall into pairs, three on the downbeat and three on the offbeat (marked with the snare). The chord changes just confirm that.

When 6/8 is this slow, it's easy to confuse it with 3/4, but it's that pairing (usually with the snare offbeat) that's the clue.

For 3/4, try these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lG3nXyI41M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxEPV4kolz0
In the former, you clearly hear the six 8ths grouped in 3 pairs, making 3/4.
Compare with Elvis's Can't Help Falling In Love, and you hear the 8ths grouped in two sets of 3 = 6/8:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqv5b0UjR4g

With Piano Man, you might argue it's fast enough to be 6/8, but the chords change every 3 pulses, with no clear sense that every second triplet is an off-beat - so maybe it's 3/8?
OTOH, you can easily imagine dancing a waltz to it.

[motojunky]

Thank you very much for the replies. It makes sense now, but it's going to take a little bit of practice.


Or a lot.