question about standard luthier interaction in anticipation of a build

[BrunoBlack]

I’ve had the good fortune of commissioning quite a few guitars and have had a great experience in every case. However, none can live up to my experience with Bruce Sexauer. There was personal 1 on 1 communication from the time I was thinking I might be interested in having Bruce build a guitar for me. We had phone conversations, email exchanges and almost daily text message exchanges. While all my builds had similar elements, working with Bruce Sexauer represents the very best in every way. If you are interested, you can check out our build on Bruce’s thread, starting around page 7 — https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...=662588&page=7

[The Bard Rocks]

I know of a couple husband/wife partnerships where the wife is VERY well qualified to field most any question, so don't write her off immediately. That may be how they have worked things between themselves to maximize his productive shop time.

Still... I can understand wanting to speak to the actual builder and in each of my builds, that's what I happened to do. Chance, not by arrangement. The important thing is that the luthier understands just what you want and you understand what he (or she) can do. A third party generally complicates an already difficult communication, but I can envision circumstances where the opposite could be true.

It is recommended to play some of his creations if you can. Most often the builder has guitars around the shop and home that you can play, if you can arrange to visit him. Guitar shows are another opportunity, though the atmosphere is not relaxed and the room acoustics may be quite imperfect.

Another way I can suggest is to ask if he knows of any of his instruments that are located close to you. Many owners are happy to show off what they have and may even let you play it (with them watching). And even more are willing to discuss their impressions over the phone or by email.

Do your due diligence well and broaden the odds that you will be delighted with what you receive. I happen to love the process and find it addicting. But that's me; I am very detail-oriented and wish to exercise control where I can.

As far as lead time, a maker cannot normally deliver a new guitar in less than 2 or, more likely, 3 months from when he starts. Glue must dry and finishes cure. Some take longer anyhow, depending upon how they build. And if you need to make up your mind on minute details, that can add time.

The time before he can even start your build depends upon how busy he is. And the decision depends upon your ability to wait as well as how much you want one from this particular builder, so ultimately that's a question only you can answer. Be aware that speed bumps can occur in nearly any build and each one usually means a delay of some sort.

As far as price, someone earlier gave figures I take some issue with. There are many, many builders who do not charge this much and some of them are every bit as good as more expensive and better-known builders. The advantage of the better-known ones is there is greater likelihood that the build will turn out exactly as you both have been hoping. One question I ask is, "How many guitars have you built now?" If it's over 100, they probably have their system very well dialed in. Over 50 and they are probably not charging quite as much as they will later, but probably can make something very nearly as good as the best they will ever produce. Under 20, and they are still learning. Take these numbers with large grains of salt. If they have apprenticed, for instance, their experience may be far greater than the number of guitars under their own name might suggest.

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by tadol

I see at least three problems in your response here -

1) Several thousand dollars? That's the price of a higher end factory build - I think to get an experienced, well-regarded solo luthier custom build, with high quality woods, you are looking at 8 to 10k, and with many of the best builders, 15k or more. Some routinely charge over 25k, especially if you want top grade Braz rw -

2) If you know the sound you want, you need to be able to express that clearly to the builder - many do not want to get into a lengthy discussion of tonewoods, and what you heard on the internet, or what your friend thinks. A really good luthier knows their inventory, what's available, and has the experience to build for your style and preference. The one time they may want your input is if they have multiple sets of say, mahogany, or sitka, and you may have a preference about the grain, color, or details - like bear claw, yay or nay?. Some people are more concerned about a tiny bit of runout even if the builder thinks it might be the best sounding top they have, others may want the most perfect looking, even if it may not be the luthiers first choice.

3) If you want to get into having a custom build done, you really need to make the effort to go out and try guitars by the builders you may want to work with first. Every builder has a different style and tonal signature, which they may be able to alter slightly, but you don't go out into the weeds trying to get one builder to build just like a different builder. You can listen to YouTube videos, and dealer videos, and even many luthiers offer video demos of their guitars. The best builders are working under the assumption that you want a guitar that you haven't been able to find elsewhere, and you want it built to meet your expectations so it satisfies you for the rest of your life. Which clearly doesn't happen as often as people would like, based on the number of custom builds that go up for sale within a year or so of them being recvd -

None of this happens by email, or via third party - but if every person who say they want a custom guitar, spent hours and hours interacting with multiple luthiers shopping for what they want, then I don't know if any of them would have any time left to build anything. But once you've decided who builds the style of guitar you want, and you have a basic idea of cost and time-frame, and it all seems reasonable and you are willing to commit to the process, then you'll generally find that the really good luthiers will put you, and your build, as the most important thing they are doing, for that period of time. That interaction, and that process, is why so many people get multiple customs built - its extremely addicting -

There is so much more involved, and I hope you get a good result from your efforts, but I think you need to be more real about what your looking to get and what level of involvement you can have in finding it -

I own a Collings, which I paid 8,000 for new, and I am expecting to spend between 11 and 15 on this commissioned guitar. I do have more than a basic understanding of tonewoods, and I know exactly the sound I want. This post was about initial communications. If those go well, then I will commit to the build.

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

I know of a couple husband/wife partnerships where the wife is VERY well qualified to field most any question, so don't write her off immediately. That may be how they have worked things between themselves to maximize his productive shop time.

Still... I can understand wanting to speak to the actual builder and in each of my builds, that's what I happened to do. Chance, not by arrangement. The important thing is that the luthier understands just what you want and you understand what he (or she) can do. A third party generally complicates an already difficult communication, but I can envision circumstances where the opposite could be true.

It is recommended to play some of his creations if you can. Most often the builder has guitars around the shop and home that you can play, if you can arrange to visit him. Guitar shows are another opportunity, though the atmosphere is not relaxed and the room acoustics may be quite imperfect.

Another way I can suggest is to ask if he knows of any of his instruments that are located close to you. Many owners are happy to show off what they have and may even let you play it (with them watching). And even more are willing to discuss their impressions over the phone or by email.

Do your due diligence well and broaden the odds that you will be delighted with what you receive. I happen to love the process and find it addicting. But that's me; I am very detail-oriented and wish to exercise control where I can.

As far as lead time, a maker cannot normally deliver a new guitar in less than 2 or, more likely, 3 months from when he starts. Glue must dry and finishes cure. Some take longer anyhow, depending upon how they build. And if you need to make up your mind on minute details, that can add time.

The time before he can even start your build depends upon how busy he is. And the decision depends upon your ability to wait as well as how much you want one from this particular builder, so ultimately that's a question only you can answer. Be aware that speed bumps can occur in nearly any build and each one usually means a delay of some sort.

As far as price, someone earlier gave figures I take some issue with. There are many, many builders who do not charge this much and some of them are every bit as good as more expensive and better-known builders. The advantage of the better-known ones is there is greater likelihood that the build will turn out exactly as you both have been hoping. One question I ask is, "How many guitars have you built now?" If it's over 100, they probably have their system very well dialed in. Over 50 and they are probably not charging quite as much as they will later, but probably can make something very nearly as good as the best they will ever produce. Under 20, and they are still learning. Take these numbers with large grains of salt. If they have apprenticed, for instance, their experience may be far greater than the number of guitars under their own name might suggest.

This was a gentler, and more helpful response than some I've received. I own a Collings, which I bought new, and it wasn't cheap. I am expecting to spend 11-15 on this build. On average, the luthiers with whom I have interacted thus far have given me a 2 year build time. I am 67, so two years seems a lot longer than it did when I was 40, if you know what I mean. But a guitar out the door in 3 months seems unusual, especially for a well-known luthier, who does not have a large shop, but maybe not. That's why I asked. I am much more relaxed about the luthier's preferred means of communication than I was when I made this post, largely in response to some of the replies I've received. It was never about the middle person being a wife, it could be a husband, or a buddy, it was about the once removed nature of the communication. But maybe it can work. I am going to give it a try and see how it feels.

[tadol]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

I own a Collings, which I paid 8,000 for new, and I am expecting to spend between 11 and 15 on this commissioned guitar. I do have more than a basic understanding of tonewoods, and I know exactly the sound I want. This post was about initial communications. If those go well, then I will commit to the build.

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

This was a gentler, and more helpful response than some I've received. I own a Collings, which I bought new, and it wasn't cheap. I am expecting to spend 11-15 on this build. On average, the luthiers with whom I have interacted thus far have given me a 2 year build time. I am 67, so two years seems a lot longer than it did when I was 40, if you know what I mean. But a guitar out the door in 3 months seems unusual, especially for a well-known luthier, who does not have a large shop, but maybe not. That's why I asked. I am much more relaxed about the luthier's preferred means of communication than I was when I made this post, largely in response to some of the replies I've received. It was never about the middle person being a wife, it could be a husband, or a buddy, it was about the once removed nature of the communication. But maybe it can work. I am going to give it a try and see how it feels.

So - thats a huge difference - a few thousand is very, very different than 15 thousand. And that gets you in the door (and the undivided attention) of a great many exceptionally good luthiers - not all, but many. Having experience with higher end small shop builds is good too. And time on these builds is dependent on how the builder builds - some work in batches, building 4, or 6, or even more guitars at a time, others have to plan on ordering wood and having it acclimate for some months, some send guitars out for finish, and that can be a few months in itself. Many spend a lot of time at shows and festivals, marketing and promoting, and many have families and lives that demand much of their time. And many make sure they have work lined up well in advance, so they can keep making those payments, like many of us -

3 months to get a guitar “out the door” is actually reasonable. I’m privileged to know Bruce Sexauer well, and I’ve seen him get a basic guitar built in as little as a week - but then it’s about a 10 day process to get the finish applied (and it has to be 10 consecutive work days, if there’s anything happening that would keep him out of the shop for a day, he’ll put off starting it until he knows he has those 10 work days clear. And then, the finish has to cure - his custom varnish usually is about a 30 day cure time before he can buff - and then there is a couple days of assembly and set-up. But he has lots of material in-shop and ready to go - not all luthiers are as well supplied. So if his schedule is open, I know he could do 3 months.

With this additional info, I’d still narrow the list of potential luthiers down to just a few, then send them a well detailed email with what you are looking for, with info on what you’re playing, or have played, and how they aren’t ideal. Also, if you are open to their suggestions on size and woods, or if you have a more specific requirements on size or material that you want. If there are design details that are critical to you (soundport, fan-fret, decoration, tuners, for example) explain those. I’d ask them if they could give you a call to discuss, and to get an idea of their pricing and availability. That will also give you a chance to see how well they pay attention to your requests, and how well you communicate. What they ask you, and how well you can answer, is critical to making sure you get an instrument you’ll want to keep forever.

Your skills as a customer, and your ability to explain your needs and wants as a player and musician, and really knowing what works and sounds best to you, should have almost as much influence on the final outcome as your choice of builder. And a final note - either get your hands on a couple guitars by whoever you’re talking to, or try to talk to a few of their recent customers. It will help in your discussions with them, and help make sure you’ll be happy with their efforts. And don’t rely on the opinions of strangers on the internet - my own included -

[Merlemantel]

Originally Posted by tadol

So - thats a huge difference - a few thousand is very, very different than 15 thousand. And that gets you in the door (and the undivided attention) of a great many exceptionally good luthiers - not all, but many. Having experience with higher end small shop builds is good too. And time on these builds is dependent on how the builder builds - some work in batches, building 4, or 6, or even more guitars at a time, others have to plan on ordering wood and having it acclimate for some months, some send guitars out for finish, and that can be a few months in itself. Many spend a lot of time at shows and festivals, marketing and promoting, and many have families and lives that demand much of their time. And many make sure they have work lined up well in advance, so they can keep making those payments, like many of us -

3 months to get a guitar “out the door” is actually reasonable. I’m privileged to know Bruce Sexauer well, and I’ve seen him get a basic guitar built in as little as a week - but then it’s about a 10 day process to get the finish applied (and it has to be 10 consecutive work days, if there’s anything happening that would keep him out of the shop for a day, he’ll put off starting it until he knows he has those 10 work days clear. And then, the finish has to cure - his custom varnish usually is about a 30 day cure time before he can buff - and then there is a couple days of assembly and set-up. But he has lots of material in-shop and ready to go - not all luthiers are as well supplied. So if his schedule is open, I know he could do 3 months.

With this additional info, I’d still narrow the list of potential luthiers down to just a few, then send them a well detailed email with what you are looking for, with info on what you’re playing, or have played, and how they aren’t ideal. Also, if you are open to their suggestions on size and woods, or if you have a more specific requirements on size or material that you want. If there are design details that are critical to you (soundport, fan-fret, decoration, tuners, for example) explain those. I’d ask them if they could give you a call to discuss, and to get an idea of their pricing and availability. That will also give you a chance to see how well they pay attention to your requests, and how well you communicate. What they ask you, and how well you can answer, is critical to making sure you get an instrument you’ll want to keep forever.

Your skills as a customer, and your ability to explain your needs and wants as a player and musician, and really knowing what works and sounds best to you, should have almost as much influence on the final outcome as your choice of builder. And a final note - either get your hands on a couple guitars by whoever you’re talking to, or try to talk to a few of their recent customers. It will help in your discussions with them, and help make sure you’ll be happy with their efforts. And don’t rely on the opinions of strangers on the internet - my own included -

Super helpful. Thank you.

[Bob Womack]

If you like the husband-wife team, you might ask the wife if you'll have a phone consultation and or direct communication with the builder once you plunk down your deposit. Right now you are in the "kicking the tires" phase. He might communicate with already settled customers.

All the best,

Bob

[John Osthoff]

Sending out emails to builders is a great starting point. You can get some of the basics “out of the way.” What is the expected build time, deposits required etc? When digging in some more, email can still work to some degree, but a phone conversation (or in person) is usually a good way of make sure you are on the same page with the builder. I won’t go into too much on describing tone here and I often hear builders using adjectives that seem romantic to describe tone. I tend to stick with things that can actually be measured, sustain, fundamental, overtones attack and balance. While we might be thinking the same thing when we say something like crystalline, I don’t know if we will be thinking the same things if use the terms, elegant or pristine.

Following up on a phone conversation with an emails can avoid confusion later on too. Often, I will ask the client to follow-up with what we discussed to have a good written record of that we talked about.

It was mentioned earlier in the thread about not placing an order through a dealer. I understand that the person wanted to communicate directly with the builder and avoid the “middleman.” If someone came to me and said, I heard of you through Guitar Gallery and I would be interested in you building me a custom guitar. I would insist that we do the order through Guitar Gallery. That said I would not insist that all conversations must be between them and the dealer. We can still communicate directly. I had someone ask me to do a custom build based on a guitar at a dealer. They wanted a discount by coming directly to me. Not gonna happen. I lost the sale. The dealer did her job by posting my guitars on her site with professional videos and professional players demonstrating the guitars. Circumventing her in the process is just wrong.

Good luck on your journey, it is (usually) a fun process. Enjoy

[warfrat73]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

But a guitar out the door in 3 months seems unusual, especially for a well-known luthier, who does not have a large shop, but maybe not.

It certainly is unusual, though not unheard of.

Your "around 2 years" experience I think is far more the norm than either a few months or a decade-ish (as you would get with Walker, Tragutt, Olson, Sands or a few others, should you even be able to get in the queue).

[sinistral]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

If you like the husband-wife team, you might ask the wife if you'll have a phone consultation and or direct communication with the builder once you plunk down your deposit. Right now you are in the "kicking the tires" phase. He might communicate with already settled customers.

All the best,

Bob

Everyone is different in terms of expectations, but if I’m contemplating a custom guitar commission in the $10k - $15k range, I would want to have at least a preliminary conversation with the luthier directly to make sure that we are on the same page about the prospective guitar.

To the OP, I second (or third) the suggestion to go to a guitar show or two, if you haven’t already. While the acoustics in the hall aren’t great and there’s usually a fair amount of ambient noise, there are typically side rooms where one can demo guitars quietly. The luthiers at the shows (including husband and wife teams, of which there are several) are, on the whole, very approachable (otherwise they wouldn’t be there). If the luthier or luthiers you have in mind don’t exhibit at shows, that’s fine, too. I’ve commissioned a custom guitar from a luthier in another country, and the process has been seamless.

[KevinH]

Originally Posted by Merlemantel

... She replied that I should email her my questions, she would talk with the luthier, and get back to me...

I'm sure everyone has their own expectations on how the custom-build experience should go, but this definitely wouldn't work for me. It could be that she is knowledgable about the whole process, but how would you know that up front? And even if this luthier's queue is so full that s(he) doesn't have time to interact much with customers, that process of relaying questions and answers seems really inefficient. If the interaction is important to you (it is to me) I'd look elsewhere.

It's interesting that you posted this as I was just thinking of asking a similar question about communication during a build. I am (sort of) patiently waiting for a build to start that I commissioned last Nov. The actual build time is about 3 months, with a wait time of 1 year when I paid the deposit. I didn't want to wait much longer than that as I just turned 70 - so I very much understand your desire to keep the wait time down.

Best of luck on finding a luthier that works with you.

[Dogma]

If you are still talking to a number of builders and haven't put down a deposit I can, in theory, understand the builder's inclination to let the business partner do the up-front part of the interaction. I agree that it feels kind of strange, but it does let the builder focus on building. OTOH, it could also indicate a more general lack of interest in or ability toward client interaction. A simple query as to whether this mode of communication would continue once you have put up the deposit money would give you more info in this regard and you can then decide whether it's for you. It would NOT be for me!

There is a whole conversation to be had here on AGF - and it probably has been had at some point - about the level of detailed communication that would be reasonable to expect before any commitment (=$) to a build has been made. I have never discussed wood in a detailed way before committing to a build. Others' MMV.

Only one of the builders I have worked with could start relatively immediately. There might be any number of reasons the person you are considering can. It could be name recognition, it could be reputation, it could be that they can focus solely on building since they have a wife who runs communications, it could be that no one else likes the communication chain, it could be that they are super speedy, who knows? But one sure thing is that if you have a bad or even just iffy vibe going in, you should pay attention to this because if you are unhappy with the process, you will be unhappy with the product. And at the pricing level you are considering you should be very happy with everything! IMHO, of course.