Recording classical/flamenco guitar

[thefsb]

Originally Posted by Guitarist-1977

Thank you for your feedback.
For starters, I don't really know know what I am doing - I am starting to dabble with recording. I have honestly thought about adding an LDC (to add some warmth) in addition to the SDC pair I have but will hold on until I get get decent noise level from the SDC. What would I need to do to better control room reflections? throw more rugs? Or put some sound absorbers on the wall when I record? All thoughts are welcome here.

You can get warmth by adjusting the EQ after making the recording. You may need to learn how to do that. Web and youtube search should get you started.

To control room reflections you first need to establish what the problem is, what kind of reflection problem.

Too much reverberation can be controlled by a set of 2 inch thick acoustic absorber panels, which typically go on walls, although they are more efficient away from the wall. Search on Sweetwater or B&H to see available products.

To control the room's bass modes (you can search that on the web and youtube) you need large thick absorbers, at least 4 inches thick, preferably 6, and they have to be big. They are often installed at 45 degrees between walls and ceiling because they take up so much space. These are typically made of boxes filled with dense fiber glass and are expensive to buy and ship as finished products. If you are handy with carpentry you can make your own.

Getting this stuff right with minimal expense and disruption to your music room and with good results is not easy. There's a lot to learn. Or you can try to find someone skilled in acoustics and treatments to look at your space and listen to it and suggest something.

It's at this point that you might consider it easier to use a pickup system in the guitar, perhaps complemented by your current mics. Or go to a studio to record. That was my choice. I was not prepared to commit to turning my music room/study into a recording studio good enough to make high quality acoustic guitar recordings.

[Guitarist-1977]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I think you mean you link the 2 tracks to a stereo pair? Yes, that's fine, the two tracks are going to end up as a stereo pair somewhere along the line, and it's simplest to just record them that way. It really has to do with workflow, the DAW you ultimately edit in, and just how you like to work. Some people like to work with 2 individual mono tracks, others like to have 1 stereo track. Depending on your DAW, there can be benefits either way. Personally, I prefer to use a stereo track because it makes it easier to operate on the recording as a whole and to apply plugins equally.

Thank you - will keep as a stereo pair (XY) will recording.

Did a quick comparison while monitoring on the headphone yesterday - seems that XY pair creates less baseline noise that recording the 2 mics in two separate channels (noise synergy? )

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Guitarist-1977

Thank you - will keep as a stereo pair (XY) will recording.

Did a quick comparison while monitoring on the headphone yesterday - seems that XY pair creates less baseline noise that recording the 2 mics in two separate channels (noise synergy? )

XY refers to the mic positioning - the way the mics in your Zoom are oriented. XY is one of the common mic placement patterns. Nothing to do with whether you record the 2 mics to 2 separate tracks or one stereo track. You can record using an XY mic setup to either 2 separate tracks or one stereo track. I would not expect any noise difference, it's just a file format. Hard to know what is happening if you are hearing more noise one way or another.

[Guitarist-1977]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

XY refers to the mic positioning - the way the mics in your Zoom are oriented. XY is one of the common mic placement patterns. Nothing to do with whether you record the 2 mics to 2 separate tracks or one stereo track. You can record using an XY mic setup to either 2 separate tracks or one stereo track. I would not expect any noise difference, it's just a file format. Hard to know what is happening if you are hearing more noise one way or another.

Got it - it just seems confusing to me it is called XY because my mic placement is AB (spaced pair). In my mind, the zoom is maybe taking that AB and making it an XY ..that is my fear if that makes sense (as my mics are oriented in AB)

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Guitarist-1977

Got it - it just seems confusing to me it is called XY because my mic placement is AB (spaced pair). In my mind, the zoom is maybe taking that AB and making it an XY ..that is my fear if that makes sense (as my mics are oriented in AB)

I'm not sure what you're looking at. XY and AB are two names of mic placements, physical ways of positioning mics (there are many more with different names). Nothing at all to do with dual mono or single stereo tracks. I don't recall the zoom using that term, there are simply linked or unlinked stereo tracks. My Zoom died, so I can't refresh my memory or compare what you're looking at, but clearly something is confusing you. If you want to use 2 separate tracks because it's less confusing that's fine. Eventually when you mix them and post them here, you'll have to create a single stereo track, regardless of how your mics are setup, or even how many mics or instruments you have.

[Guitarist-1977]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'm not sure what you're looking at. XY and AB are two names of mic placements, physical ways of positioning mics (there are many more with different names). Nothing at all to do with dual mono or single stereo tracks. I don't recall the zoom using that term, there are simply linked or unlinked stereo tracks. My Zoom died, so I can't refresh my memory or compare what you're looking at, but clearly something is confusing you. If you want to use 2 separate tracks because it's less confusing that's fine. Eventually when you mix them and post them here, you'll have to create a single stereo track, regardless of how your mics are setup, or even how many mics or instruments you have.

They don't use that term but when you connect say channels 1&2 together on the display they are linked using an "XY" letter - that is why I thought they meant an XY pattern.

Anyways I think I got it - now I am trying to play with overdub and somehow cannot get it to work. Here is what I am trying to do:
A. Record a backing track like strumming a few chords (say on track 1&2)
B. Record over it some solo on another track (on tracks 3&4)
I am assuming you can do that with Overdub but maybe I misinterpreting what overdub really means on the H6...

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Guitarist-1977

They don't use that term but when you connect say channels 1&2 together on the display they are linked using an "XY" letter - that is why I thought they meant an XY pattern.

I think that's because channels 1&2 are dedicated to the built-in mics, which are in a fixed XY position.

Can't help with the overdubbing. That should work, but I always thought overdubbing on a device like the Zoom was too awkward, so I don't remember anything about it. Much easier to use a full DAW. I'm sure others here have used the Zoom for overdubbing.

BTW, you'd get much more involvement from those who are into recording, if you were posting on the Recording subforum. Not everyone reads the Classical group.

[Guitarist-1977]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I think that's because channels 1&2 are dedicated to the built-in mics, which are in a fixed XY position.

Can't help with the overdubbing. That should work, but I always thought overdubbing on a device like the Zoom was too awkward, so I don't remember anything about it. Much easier to use a full DAW. I'm sure others here have used the Zoom for overdubbing.

BTW, you'd get much more involvement from those who are into recording, if you were posting on the Recording subforum. Not everyone reads the Classical group.

Noted will post in the recording forum. Thanks a lot for your help.

Tried it a couple of times and did not work - only picked the first rhythm track and did not record the second. I am not keen on doing it on the zoom H6 but I need a way to listen to A when I am playing B.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Guitarist-1977

Noted will post in the recording forum. Thanks a lot for your help.

Tried it a couple of times and did not work - only picked the first rhythm track and did not record the second. I am not keen on doing it on the zoom H6 but I need a way to listen to A when I am playing B.

BTW, I picked up a pair of SM57 (dynamic) mics for $198 just to see what is what with them. They seem to be a bit more forgiving of room noise and other little noises arising from hand movements. The tune in my signature (Scarborough Fair) was recorded with them yesterday.

[Guitarist-1977]

Originally Posted by TBman

BTW, I picked up a pair of SM57 (dynamic) mics for $198 just to see what is what with them. They seem to be a bit more forgiving of room noise and other little noises arising from hand movements. The tune in my signature (Scarborough Fair) was recorded with them yesterday.

Thanks for sharing, listened to that track in your signature. It sounds nice but I feel it is missing some of the nice nuances in a classical guitar. Really hard to tell unless you recorded the same piece side by side with a condenser.

[thefsb]

Originally Posted by TBman

BTW, I picked up a pair of SM57 (dynamic) mics for $198 just to see what is what with them. They seem to be a bit more forgiving of room noise and other little noises arising from hand movements.

I guess that's because they are more directional than your small diaphragm condensers so that they pick up more of what they are pointed at and less of what comes from elsewhere, including room reflections.

To give you an idea what I mean, here's a close-mic recording of a guitar in a fairly dead room



Now here's a recording in a very lively space with a long reverberation time and you can see how far the mics are from the guitar



And of course there's everything in between. I like them both. Generally I prefer less reverb than the sonata here but this is unusually well done and it goes nicely with the music and the video.

My idea here is to encourage you listen to the room.

Another trick to educate yourself is make a video using your phone. Walk around your house from room to room talking all the time medium loud, visit the entrance, outdoors, bathrooms, big rooms, small rooms and walk-in closets full of clothes. Then play it back while listening with headphones.

We don't notice these differences very much in real life for a number of complex and very interesting reasons but basically recordings are not the same as being there. With recordings these differences become very noticeable.

The Goldilocks zone for recording acoustic guitar is to minimize bass modes and then while recording pick up just the right amount of natural room reverb together with a good guitar sound. You can adjust the mix of direct and reflected sound by moving the mic closer to and away from the guitar and by changing its angle. But move it too close and you won't get a nice sound. So if there's too much reverb at the distance that produces a nice integrated guitar sound then you have to dampen the room with absorbers.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Guitarist-1977

Thanks for sharing, listened to that track in your signature. It sounds nice but I feel it is missing some of the nice nuances in a classical guitar. Really hard to tell unless you recorded the same piece side by side with a condenser.

I've found that recording with the dynamic mics is a more relaxing experience.

Here for comparison is a short section during the same recording session, but with two LDC mics, a WA-14 and a WA-47jr.



May not be a great comparison due the mic positions used. The LDC mics are set in a parallel horizontal position, off to the left and pointed at the 12th fret approximately 10" away from the guitar. The dynamic mics are in front of the soundhole, but one is pointed towards the 12th fret and the other is pointed towards the bridge area and about 6-7" back from the guitar.

I think the only thing this highlights is my lack of experience with mic positions. I can't get a decent headphone sound from the F3 during recording so that I can position the mics to get the best sound. I have to see if Zoom can help me out, or maybe there is a setting I have to adjust. Anyway the dynamics seem to be better right now due to my lack of good technique. That will improve over time though as I am relatively new to nylon.

I simply replaced the dynamic track in my DAW with the condensers track so the reverb and eq are the same.

[Guitarist-1977]

Originally Posted by TBman

I've found that recording with the dynamic mics is a more relaxing experience.

Here for comparison is a short section during the same recording session, but with two LDC mics, a WA-14 and a WA-47jr.



May not be a great comparison due the mic positions used. The LDC mics are set in a parallel horizontal position, off to the left and pointed at the 12th fret approximately 10" away from the guitar. The dynamic mics are in front of the soundhole, but one is pointed towards the 12th fret and the other is pointed towards the bridge area and about 6-7" back from the guitar.

I think the only thing this highlights is my lack of experience with mic positions. I can't get a decent headphone sound from the F3 during recording so that I can position the mics to get the best sound. I have to see if Zoom can help me out, or maybe there is a setting I have to adjust. Anyway the dynamics seem to be better right now due to my lack of good technique. That will improve over time though as I am relatively new to nylon.

I simply replaced the dynamic track in my DAW with the condensers track so the reverb and eq are the same.

I honestly like the condenser sample better..they just capture the small nuances that are overlooked by the shure sm57. That is just my thoughts.
Like 12-15 years back when i started researching different mics i settled on condenser (e.g. AKG P170) as feedback favored the condensers. Now i just have to work around room noise and reflections.

[Guitarist-1977]

Just a quick question (might be stupid) as I finally managed to get overdub to work on zoom H6. Can I get another pair of large condenser mics? The idea is I will use the LDC for recording rythm and SDC for recording solo instead of having to swap my 2 SDCs to a different input on the H6 (very lazy I know lol). So 2 questions;
1. Is it a good idea?
2. Can I mix and match 2 LDCs (like AKG p420 and Rode NT1a) or both have to be the same?

Thanks