Too many overtones

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by 3 chord

What do you all think, can a guitar have too many overtones?

I doubt it. It's nothing I've ever run into. Guitars just all sound different. Some suit different people's playing and singing more than others, but I'd be hard pressed to single out overtones for praise or blame.

It's interesting reading what others are saying. (E.g. "I prefer a strong fundamental and fewer upper partials.")

Originally Posted by 3 chord

I was always brought up thinking the more overtones the better the design of the guitars construction.

Sounds like you have a headstart. I never heard anyone talk about guitar construction when I was growing up.

Originally Posted by 3 chord

But the longer I play guitar I think for some styles perhaps the lingering tones may get in the way.

I've never noticed it.

A guitar teacher friend once showed me how use my right hand to damp the strings for blues "to make a Martin guitar sound like a Sears guitar." But I've always thought of that as taming the sustain, not the overtones.

Just semantics?

Originally Posted by 3 chord

My Walden is crazy with overtones, I think it is cool

That'd be good enough for me. Cool is its own reward.

Originally Posted by 3 chord

but it makes me wonder if this would please the masses.

thoughts?

Go ask the masses!

[jmagill]

Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein

I doubt it. It's nothing I've ever run into. Guitars just all sound different. Some suit different people's playing and singing more than others, but I'd be hard pressed to single out overtones for praise or blame.

It's interesting reading what others are saying. (E.g. "I prefer a strong fundamental and fewer upper partials.")



Sounds like you have a headstart. I never heard anyone talk about guitar construction when I was growing up.



I've never noticed it.

A guitar teacher friend once showed me how use my right hand to damp the strings for blues "to make a Martin guitar sound like a Sears guitar." But I've always thought of that as taming the sustain, not the overtones.

Just semantics?



That'd be good enough for me. Cool is its own reward.



Go ask the masses!

If one is playing rhythmic accompaniment for relatively fast bluegrass, old-time or Celtic tunes, an instrument with fewer overtones and a perhaps shorter sustain can provide the percussive punch necessary. There's a reason the D-18, with its drier, more fundamental-forward tone is the classic bluegrass 'warhorse'.

So, more overtones or less; it depends on the sound you're looking for.
.

[gmel555]

Originally Posted by jmagill

....So, more overtones or less; it depends on the sound you're looking for.

Yep...For me it depends on what music I'm playing. Early on I loved the way overtones (&sustain) added sound & filled "space". HOWEVER, when I started to listen to my recordings AND my playing got more "complicated" I started to hear how added (unnecessary) overtones, sustain, etc. sometimes got in the way of what I wanted to be heard. There are plenty of times when I want a note(s) to be heard but then "get out of the way" for what I'm playing next. Technique certainly is important but if the guitar can make it easier to accomplish by the nature of it's tone...then even better. So...IMHO it depends on what I'm playing.

[cip]

I don't understand anything of that is discussed.

How do you hear overtone?

"In a guitar, an overtone is a higher frequency sound that vibrates in multiples of the fundamental frequency being played. When you pluck a string on a guitar, the string vibrates not only at its fundamental frequency (the pitch you perceive most prominently), but also at higher frequencies called overtones or harmonics. These overtones are integral to the richness and color of the sound produced by the instrument.

The fundamental frequency determines the note you hear, while the overtones add depth and complexity to the sound. Overtones are a natural part of any musical tone, and they contribute to the timbre or quality of the sound, helping to distinguish one instrument from another, even if they are playing the same note. In guitars and other stringed instruments, players can also intentionally isolate and play these overtones by lightly touching the string at specific points, creating what are known as harmonic notes." - according to Google

When I pluck my guitar I hear the note I'm playing, what are you all hearing?

[Mark Stone]

This is a 15 year old thread . . . .

[Bluemonk]

Originally Posted by cip

I don't understand anything of that is discussed.

How do you hear overtone?


When I pluck my guitar I hear the note I'm playing, what are you all hearing?

The quality of the note. The relative richness/complexity of that note. The greater the overtone content, the more complex the note. Notice I did not say "more" or "fewer overtones." You can't count them, can you?

[Br1ck]

15 years and relevant. My own journey has been toward drier guitars as I became a faster and cleaner flat picker. My 00 15 was a revelation of clarity. My M36, lovely as it was had too many overtones and now resides with a finger picking friend. You have to find your own sweet spot. For some that will be an HD 35.

[Moldstar]

Originally Posted by mercy

I love the clash of overtones/sustain. For me there is no such thing as too much.

same here. I dig it.

[Moldstar]

Originally Posted by Bluemonk

The quality of the note. The relative richness/complexity of that note. The greater the overtone content, the more complex the note. Notice I did not say "more" or "fewer overtones." You can't count them, can you?

You sure can count them if you record the guitar into a daw, and then throw that clip into one of 8 gazillion frequency analyzer plugins, you can quite easily count the overtones, they are visually quite distinct on a waveform graph. "More" or "fewer" overtones would be correct, and also amplitude of each over tone.

[jaymarsch]

Originally Posted by Mark Stone

This is a 15 year old thread . . . .

And, it seems, the answer is still: It depends… :-)
Best,
Jayne

[Bluemonk]

Originally Posted by Moldstar

You sure can count them if you record the guitar into a daw, and then throw that clip into one of 8 gazillion frequency analyzer plugins, you can quite easily count the overtones, they are visually quite distinct on a waveform graph. "More" or "fewer" overtones would be correct, and also amplitude of each over tone.

Hmmm, I'm still not convinced (but open to being educated). A readout is one thing, but are you saying it would be an accurate statement to say, for example, that such and such a guitar has 93 overtones?

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by jmagill

If one is playing rhythmic accompaniment for relatively fast bluegrass, old-time or Celtic tunes, an instrument with fewer overtones and a perhaps shorter sustain can provide the percussive punch necessary. There's a reason the D-18, with its drier, more fundamental-forward tone is the classic bluegrass 'warhorse'.

So, more overtones or less; it depends on the sound you're looking for.
.

Amen to that. I adjust my playing to fit the guitar, but you're right, you can only take that so far.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by cip

. . . When I pluck my guitar I hear the note I'm playing, what are you all hearing?

I find it to be a bit bewildering, too. As far as I can tell, it's about what I'd call voice (a.k.a. tone) and sustain. Rosewood guitars often sound voicier and sustainier than other woods, and because of that, some people like them more for singing over (fewer mid-range frequencies), and some people like mahogany for soloing (more jump-the-queue mid-range frequencies).

Don't know whether that's all they're talking about, though. It's all guitar voodoo to me. I do think we can all adjust our playing to fit the situation. If your rosewood is too warm, play closer to the bridge. If your mahogany is too bright, play it up on the neck. It ain't rocket science. Suborbital propulsion at best.

I get that there's more to it than that, but I'm not a connie-sewer. I'm content if I just have a playable guitar and fun folks to play it with.

[BlueBowman]

Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein

Don't know whether that's all they're talking about, though. It's all guitar voodoo to me. I do think we can all adjust our playing to fit the situation. If your rosewood is too warm, play closer to the bridge. If your mahogany is too bright, play it up on the neck. It ain't rocket science. Suborbital propulsion at best.

"It's all guitar voodoo to me." Lotta truth to this funny statement. It would make a great AGF bumper sticker.

[Hexcore]

Originally Posted by Mark Stone

This is a 15 year old thread . . . .

Not anymore! IMO, it's a pretty good question. In a lifetime of playing and enthusiasm for guitars, I have generally heard and read comments assuming that the most complex and "hi fi" (overtone rich; harmonics are easily audible alongside the fundamental note) guitar tones are an indicator of the best guitars. (I'm talking only about the vastly most common guitars -- steel strings.) Looking back at the history of American guitar-making, I think we can see how this perspective developed, and very specifically with Martin as that company lead the way in what has become a sort of American specialty: high performance steel string guitars of great quality. And on the surface, it's a logical standard that is often applied for all kinds of sound production devices. But as I listened to other people and learned, I came to recognize how other guitar types can be incredible in other applications. Gibson Hummingbirds have often been very "dull" guitars, with little sparkle or articulation, but their clear fundamental and comparatively limited harmonics make them a great complement for vocals, and great for chording and rhythm -- applications where a really busy sound would not work well. I've spouted off enough, but absolutely recommend finding the guitar voices that suit you most and go with those. We're no longer huddled around a single mike wishing we had "banjo killers," or a booming bass to make up for the lack of a string bass... I suspect that a lot of musicians making recordings would and do appreciate a clearer and more fundamental-forward sound.