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Old 02-12-2018, 07:16 PM
YamahaGuy YamahaGuy is offline
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Default Gain levels MG16XU

I'm ashamed to admit that even though I've owned this wonderful mixer for 2+ years now, I've done little recording with it. The main outs have so much headroom, my speakers are turned down to one notch above nothing. I'm using Audacity and am running my levels so that on the meter, I'm hitting 0 to +3db. So my question: how high should I be setting the gain for recording? Should I shoot for as close to clipping as I can get? Recording via USB and the computer.

I'm using a condenser mic with pop filter for vocals and my a/e guitar through a direct box.
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:07 AM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YamahaGuy View Post
I'm ashamed to admit that even though I've owned this wonderful mixer for 2+ years now, I've done little recording with it. The main outs have so much headroom, my speakers are turned down to one notch above nothing. I'm using Audacity and am running my levels so that on the meter, I'm hitting 0 to +3db. So my question: how high should I be setting the gain for recording? Should I shoot for as close to clipping as I can get? Recording via USB and the computer.

I'm using a condenser mic with pop filter for vocals and my a/e guitar through a direct box.
Honestly it’s a bit tough answering here because (I think inadvertently) you brought up a handful of issues more than just “what level should I shoot for”. I think at least a fundamental outline on how you’re using the board would help. Is this an analog console but digital i/o? Are you using it to feed both the software and the board? If so are the inputs on your speakers digital? Are you monitoring “from” the board? You’re hitting 0 to +3db where? On an analog meter? If it is an analog meter do you understand how that applies to the dbfs metering in the software? You’ve had to turn down your speakers but your speakers (at least very likely) are input sensitivity controls and are not meant to be used as a volume control.

I love the idea of an analog control center for home recording. If I could afford the cost of 24 channel conversion I’d route everything to an analog board but as I said earlier there appears to be a lot of issues born out of what appears to be distilled into one question. More info needed

Last edited by Joseph Hanna; 02-13-2018 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:23 PM
YamahaGuy YamahaGuy is offline
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So I am monitoring from the board. It is an analog board and I'm using the USB connection from the board to my pc. I don't know whether that is digital or not. I realize I'm not going to be able to listen through the speakers while recording, so I will be using AKG K240s and the headphone jack on the board for monitoring. The 0 to 3db levels I speak of are on the board's analog meter.

The speakers I have are Yamaha MSR400 powered 12s.

The initial sound checks I've done are surprisingly "quiet" as far as hissing and humming go. Mic cheap MXL 990 with pop filter and shock mount works well enough.

Sorry I'm such a noob when it comes to the recording end of things. I've recorded but really need to do my homework on gain staging and digital vs analog apparently.
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Old 02-13-2018, 10:00 PM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
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Originally Posted by YamahaGuy View Post
So I am monitoring from the board. It is an analog board and I'm using the USB connection from the board to my pc. I don't know whether that is digital or not. I realize I'm not going to be able to listen through the speakers while recording, so I will be using AKG K240s and the headphone jack on the board for monitoring. The 0 to 3db levels I speak of are on the board's analog meter.

The speakers I have are Yamaha MSR400 powered 12s.

The initial sound checks I've done are surprisingly "quiet" as far as hissing and humming go. Mic cheap MXL 990 with pop filter and shock mount works well enough.

Sorry I'm such a noob when it comes to the recording end of things. I've recorded but really need to do my homework on gain staging and digital vs analog apparently.
Don’t be sorry There’s really a lot on the table here so one step at a time. I’m still at work so I won’t be able to do much tonight. But one step at a time. MSR 400 speakers are analog. They must be getting audio from somewhere other than USB. Where?

Speakers must be turned off while recording in virtually every scenario on earth. That’s give if there’s a mic involved. Past that Nothing to add here.

Analog meters are on every level possible, different than digital meters. Do a quick search on dB meters vs dBfs meters. It’s important to understand what both are telling you and what exactly the differences are. This is not particularly difficult to understand and you’ll need this fundamental understanding to move forward.

Finally for this evening... what is your converter box. If you’re going in USB from the Yamaha to the computer, how is audio getting to the speakers?
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Old 02-14-2018, 04:49 AM
YamahaGuy YamahaGuy is offline
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When I listen back to the recording, the audio from the computer and the DAW goes back into the mixer via USB. I keep that channel off when recording.

So while recording, I am essentially monitoring what is coming from the board, not what the DAW is getting (but those should be virtually the same?)
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Old 02-14-2018, 09:44 AM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
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Generally on most analog consoles there are 3 primary points of gain staging. That’s not always the case with some analog boards with digital i/o capabilities but we’ll get to that in time . It’s important to distinguish those points and their fundamental functions before moving forward. If this is something you already have under control skip this post but anything downstream of these first 3 points rely on proper setting, including your speakers.

The signal flow and gain staging starts with the Yamaha’s input sensitivity control usually located at the top of each channel strip. It’s sole purpose is to optimize the input “aperture” to match whatever device is feeding that channel. It’s a set it and forget it control and is there to provide for varying devices with widely varying output levels that usually are encountered with live performances but certainly applicable in multi-in recording scenarios. It is a level “matching” device and is never intended to increase volume. Proper input sensitivity settings are vital to proper gain staging and a failure there ensures a failure with everything else down stream. It’s also important to note that on some analog consoles the input sensitivity can have some effect on the efficiency of the tone controls. Not so much these days but certainly with some of the old English consoles of yesteryear.

The second point of gain stage is the channel volume. It’s purpose is obviously to control volume and unlike input sensitivity it’s designed specifically to be variable. The obvious reason and intent is to control “volume” relationships between various instruments and microphones.

There are MANY possibilities for the third point of gain staging but for simplicity we will skip to the Master Fader. It’s intent and design is to control the overall volume of the individual channels and it’s proper operation is solely dependent on getting the first two stages correct.

In your case the Yamaha’s Master fader may (or in some cases on other boards may not) feed the USB out. Some hybrid analog/digital mixers disable the Master fader in digital mode.

Having said all of that the first question is does your Master fader feed the software? In other words if you turn it up will it push the software into digital clip.

As a secondary note and getting close to your original question. If you now have a fundamental grasp of dB scale-vs-dBsf you’ll need to configure your analog gain stage first, to maximize efficiency there (-3 dB or even slightly higher is fine for analog) and depending on the Yamaha’s Master fader section you’d adjust that for safe levels in the digital world (dBfs). Levels in the digital world are less critical as long as you remain under 0 dBfs with is the point of ugly digital clip. However most mastering engineers (and audio engineers) ask for headroom in the digital world so -10 to -15 dBsf is not a bad place to start.

More when your ready
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Old 02-14-2018, 07:03 PM
YamahaGuy YamahaGuy is offline
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Thank you, Joseph, for the information. It is helpful. I had the general idea of the three stages, but your explanation really clarified the point of each stage.

As far as I can tell, the MG16XU's master fader goes to the USB as well.
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